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General Discussion / Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Last post by Seaside Chief on December 01, 2017, 10:25:12 AM »
indeed.  to judge well.  so we see that discernment is something that we approach, not something we can hold conceptually.  put differently, we see that discernment or fact is not something we can capture with an idea, with a thought.  it is quite necessary for us to make this distinction if our dialog is to advance.  and we are getting to it good sir!  oh indeed!     

now, is the observer separate from the observed?  to the speaker, our communal problem, which is conflict - both internally and externally, is a direct result of this effort to separate the observer from the observed.  now, if we can unpack this a little bit, we will see that there is, in fact, no tangible separation between the thought and the thinker, the observer and the observed, and that creating this separation, with the implementation of static images, destroys and skews perception, which is too thought and action. 

so the question is: is there separation between myself and my thoughts?  that is, is there a 'my' that has the thought, or does thought itself create the idea of 'my' through static images?  if we may go into it for a moment then perhaps we will find out if there is, or is not, a 'my' separate from thought. 

so, first there comes a sensory perception.  we see a house.  then, very quickly, there is interpretation.  we begin to define the house relative to other houses, relative to our needs and wants, relative to our expectations and opinions.  the house, fact, does not become a 'relative house', until there is the point of reference which is the 'my.'  so the house becomes ugly or attractive when viewed through the impetus of the self concept.  once the house is painted with opinion, with belief, with impetus, then it becomes 'mine.'  my perception.  my opinion.  my image.
and this is how the self concept is cultivated, obviously.  first there is sensory perception, and then it is coloured relative to my impetus, relative to my beliefs and desires.  and so then it becomes the 'mine.'  it is 'my' image.  and so through this process, there is the refurbishment of the self concept.

so we see that the self concept is thought.  it is the cumulative composition of those things painted by my impetus.  so the 'my' is not fact.  the 'my' is not actuality.  the 'my' is imagery.  and fact exists outside of this.  but, naturally, we are looking to approach it, so our question then becomes, can this imagery, this concept of the 'my' ever be congruous with fact?  or is the 'my' which is a composition of my own impetus, always in conflict with fact? 

so what do you say sir, can the 'my' become congruous with fact?  or is the 'my' always in conflict with fact?   

if we can answer this question, together, you and the speaker, then perhaps the pejuta experience will itself take on a whole new meaning.  perhaps, there will come a fundamental shift in perception - and not merely the replacement of one ideology with another.   
Cultivation / Before and After and a little extra
« Last post by Inyan on December 01, 2017, 10:24:24 AM »
This is how we graft.
Cultivation / Re: anne halonium / XHTTL / hydro lophophora showcase
« Last post by Inyan on November 30, 2017, 06:51:33 PM »
Wine of the undead post for you Bach. Excellent revelation.
Cultivation / Re: anne halonium / XHTTL / hydro lophophora showcase
« Last post by Bach on November 30, 2017, 06:46:26 PM »
I think this all relevant guys, so no need to feel you're highjacking the thread. Besides anne hasn't posted in this thread for over a year and a half. Necroposting maybe, highjacking no...
Personal Grow Logs / Re: Grafts done today....
« Last post by Inyan on November 30, 2017, 06:07:10 PM »
Thursdays grafts... many more were done, but these stood out for today.
General Discussion / Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Last post by Inyan on November 30, 2017, 09:24:13 AM »
I will agree that there is always more to be known for those that wish to discover fact.

For the observer however, that which is observed is fact in as much as it is observed.

Discernment is the ability to judge well. The fact is that we will always judge if we do more than simply observe.

We may strive to judge well and in doing so we may attempt to  become the observer.

When one replaces one set of beliefs with another, when one truly does this
One can become aware of how thought changes being if one is for a moment the observer.

“What is” can be reached by simply “being” and that can be reached by simply “observing” and that indeed can be reached with or without medicine.

The struggle with the ordinary such as internal dialogue and the boredom that it can create when that is magnified is one such way of doing this. It is by magnifying that which we routinely pass as ordinary that we may glimpse the extraordinary. It Is often the struggle that gets us to that point the first several times, but the struggle is just one method.

My poem came about as a reflection on one of my vision quests.

I’ve shared that experience here and there is more to be shared in that same thread. But I will  copy and share again.

“I've done the Lakota vision quest several times. Since this is a Pejuta thread... I will entertain you with the memories of a vision quest done with Pejuta. Mind you, I have generally do not use Pejuta on a vision quest as it is not needed, but it can certainly alter the speed or onset of experiences. Let me begin with the basics of how a vision quest is supposed to work as it was relayed to me.
First, there is the reason to vision quest and then there is formed the intent to vision quest. If the reason for vision questing is sufficiently strong then the intent grows as one prepares oneself for this experience. The preparation phase can and does often take up to a year before one is ready to vision quest after declaring ones intent. Traditionally, as I was taught, one declares your intent formally by offering tobacco and or a pipe at the very beginning to a spiritual leader, medicine man, yuwipi man, etc. It is at this time that you discuss your reasons and if accepted you will begin more serious preparation. You will make prayer ties in the colors of the 6 dirctions most generally for a vision quest. Prayer ties are looked at as books that are read by the spirits that will visit you and form the boundary of your altar where you are to stand. Prayer flags are also made and are much bigger with tails that stream down the lengths of the small trees or staffs they are attached to. Both prayer ties and prayer flags are filled with tobacco and serve also as offering to the spirits. So, the making of these things must be done in a mindful way. You have to have the intent and reason filling your every movement while you are making these so they are imbued with these thoughts, emotions, etc. The serve to prepare you and to prepare the spirit world with a ready guide to what you need. Mind you, what you need may be different from what you wish. It is generally expected that you will go to as many inipi or sweatlodges as you can during this year of preparation. As a general rule, at least one sweat lodge a week is to be expected, but there are no real rules. Many may sweat multiple times in a day and some may sweat many times in a week. The sweat lodge is another ceremony in and of itself that has much symbolism surrounding it so I will not try to do it justice here.... suffice it to say that it is viewed as a means of purification at the simplest level as well as a tool to become more in harmony with the world.
I will jump to the actual experience here and describe what I have felt and seen. Day one, I am feeling a bit afraid as night is upon me and I am all alone. I hear trees breaking and falling as there is a storm. I have been told never to leave the altar under any circumstances so I stand still. I hear a rattle snake beneath my feet and I am scared to look down. This keeps me still and alert however. In the morning hours I attempt to lower my head down. I move my head at the speed of the movement of the hour hand of a clock in my mind. I am paying attention to my speed as I can hear the snake that could kill me at my feet. I have no real plan other than to bring the snake into view. At what I think is perhaps midday...I finally gaze upon the snake... that is really a moth beating its wings against my pipe as it fights with an ant for its life. I think about how powerful those two are. In a battle for their lives the entire night without stop. How weak I am in comparison with my thoughts of hunger. My thoughts of how painful my feet are beginning to feel simply standing there.... not having to fight anything other than my own weakness.  My thoughts change to thoughts of admiration and wonder and this gives me strength to continue. Time begins to slip away from me and seconds seem like days. The best I can use to describe this experience is perhaps the experience that one has Sally D... Next I see a plague of flies surrounding  me and landing on my beautiful prayer ties. I think, they must be attracted to the sweet pipe tobacco I used. How in the world I thought to use sweet tobacco is beyond me. I am now kicking myself figuratively for this mistake. I know I am not allowed to kill anything or defend myself from attack while on this journey. I can only stand and allow these flies to surround myself and land on me as they will. I try to relax and eventually over many hours I would guess... but it could be seconds.. there is no real way to know... I look at the flies and they are all turning into beautiful blue lights. I've been told that spirits often manifest as colors and take the form of various size orbs of light and these seem to appear to be about the size of small marbles lighting up the night and dancing around me. You come in and out of these types of experiences when on a vision quest. During the daylight hours in a moment of clarity one of my supporters came up and offered me some tea. I thought that this was unusual as there is generally no contact with supporters other than hearing their voices in song from a far off distant. I was deathly thirsty and as tea was being offered I assumed there must be a reason for it. Whatever the reason, I was weak and was not going to turn down any source of hydration at this stage in the game. I had been dreaming of ice cream, hot dogs, pork, you name it in the many moments of lucidity I had. These dreams tortured me rather than helped me, but still I indulged them. So, when in this weakened state I was offered tea... I took the jug and guzzled it down trying to fill every inch of my stomach before the tea could be jerked from me. My supporter and dear friend told me... hey, slow down their fellow. This is medicine. By then, it had hit me. This was peyote tea done sun tea style and as such it lacked a strong peyote taste. The visions received after this were no more spectacular than those received before the ingesting of the tea, the main difference at this point was that they were more fluid and without the interruptions that can be seen with a typical vision quest where one comes back to this world and this reality for periods of time that can seem to stretch out to an eternity. Time then for me at least and in relation to vision quest time is thus sped up and the time spent in the spirit world is more full. What I mean by this is... in a vision quest you can see spirits or elements that will seem to be a part of this world such as when the flies where a part of this world and yet spirit. Elements within this world and those of the spirit world can exist at the same time or you can be a part of either world in its totality and sometimes you don't know which is which. With the addition of tea to this experience you are more fully involved in that other world or spirit world and totally leave this world behind. I hope this helps your understanding of what was experienced, but to be completely honest these types of experiences can not be put into words. There is no way for me to be as brutally honest about how much I craved such mundane things as different types of food, companionship, etc. during these days or how such a short period of 4 days can seem like many moments of eternity shared with losses of time where moments of vision that seemed like minutes revealed that many hours had passed... so much sometimes that one wondered whether you were up there for 7 days... panic would settle in and then you might feel like... yes.... I should go down. Something has happened and I could save lives by going back now and every moment I wait things could be getting worse. These excuses are the excuses we give ourselves when we are on such a vision quest... we just need to find the right excuse to allow us to come down and stop our vision and return to normal life. Please, take this with a grain of salt as this is a reflection of one of my vision quests and as the old saying goes... your mileage may vary. What is certain is that for anyone undergoing such an experience in whatever form or tradition you will face challenges and some of those challenges will be unique to your own self... your own individual weakness or fear. Each time is different for me, and yet there always remains elements that remain the same.”

General Discussion / Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Last post by Seaside Chief on November 29, 2017, 10:21:40 PM »
if we may sir, before we move forward, first make a distinction: discernment, to the speaker, is to receive fact.  fact, is 'what is.'  actuality.  truth.  we can approach fact, but never capture it.  if we may go into this matter for a moment:

fact is unfolding.  always moving.  but we try to capture it with ideas.  we look to nature and what happens?  we begin to define it.  we create an image of it.    it becomes this or that, something to be acquired and so on.  all created relative to the impetus of the self concept, which is of belief.  but that image is not nature.  nature is moving.  never static.  never definable. 

that undefinable is discernment.  we can approach it.  but never completely reach it.  and if we become profoundly aware of this limitation, that we can never reach fact completely, that we can only approach it- then there is the birth of intelligence.  then, one navigates with earnestness and kindliness.  then they see the nature of their own compulsions and are not urged to define them.  they just look at it plainly.  dispassionately.  it is the understanding of this limitation that can bring about a fundamental change in the mind.  all other changes are merely the replacement of one set of compulsions for another.  it is this concept, this state of negation, that i have combined with the cactus to yield some astonishing results.  if one thinks of this fact sir, that these false images limit perception, if we consider the full significance of this, while on peyote, there comes a fundamental change.  one approaches discernment sir.  one approaches the undefinable.  one becomes unlimited. 

now i would like to share this.  rather, i feel it is our responsibility, as discerners, to communicate the facts we discern.  because we can only approach it, and it is much more difficult to approach it alone.  to approach truth we need more that one angle of perception.  we need your angle, my angle, his angle.  we need to consider all of these angles and then we can see the problem on all sides.  the same is true for reality.  to approach reality we must meet one another earnestly, dispassionately, without images.  and that is why, to me, this conversation is significant. 

in fact, it is our relationship here that is a window into my own impetus.  when we relate, out come the images.  and so there they are to be perceived.  so it is through relationship that we approach discernment, fact.  which is undefinable.  i wonder if have we reached communion on this distinction.

now i am not saying i am free from belief.  that is impossible.  you couldn't get through one day.  belief is necessary.  images are necessary.  so it is not that we should avoid or move away from belief.  but we should understand it.  understand that it is limiting.  because when it is understood, its impetus recedes.  and there is receptivity.  what i am suggesting is that considering this fundamental fact while on peyote advances one perceptually towards the 'what is.' 

so i am not suggesting someone go and take peyote all willy nilly with no guidance or pattern to follow.  i am suggesting that using peyote while considering the concept, the fact, that was just discussed, leads to a permanent structural change to the brain that allows for a new type of perception altogether.  and i attest to you sir, that what i am presenting here, is worthy of your deepest consideration.  i attest to you, that your very consideration of this concept will bring the collective mind closer to the undefinable intelligence, the undefinable 'what is.'  and through that, we approach the end of conflict, both in the form of violence and in the form of conflicting images.  and so we approach intelligence.  discernment.  fact. 

does this make clear the matter of what is discernment to the speaker? 

i wonder how did your poem come about? 
Cultivation / Re: Bog-ponics continued
« Last post by Inyan on November 29, 2017, 05:38:36 PM »
What is a pH? Should I be worried about the structural stability of my house built on this water due to some pH?
Cultivation / Re: Bog-ponics continued
« Last post by Acidmademesmile on November 29, 2017, 05:15:08 PM »
Really lovely man, what is your ph value like?
Those are some fat looking peresk leaves :P
Personal Grow Logs / Re: Grafts done today....
« Last post by Inyan on November 29, 2017, 03:50:27 PM »
97.62% grafting success with this batch of seedlings. Not bad if I do say so myself.
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