Sacred Cactus

There are many methods of preparing pejuta. I will share a few of those that I have experience with.
1, 1 button dried eaten size of palm. Tastes bland this way.

2. Glass jar, fill 1/8-1/4 full of fresh or dried pejuta with root removed. Fill with water and let soak for 1 week in sunlight. Add honey to sweeten. Tastes too good to be true.

3. Glass jar, filled to same level with pulverized dried pejuta brought to low rolling rumble for 1 hour. Tighten lid onto jar and let sit buried for one month. This is the most aesthetically unpleasing method I've known and will remind one of diarrhea in almost every way from consistency to looks, but it is also one of the most potent methods I've had.

4. Dried and powdered. You can store this type of pejuta in a glass jar and seal indefinitely. When your ready to partake you pull out a pinch and place in the palm of your hand. Add a little bit of water and roll into a gumball size in your hand.

before people go mowing down on any cacti, they first must always ensure their actions are both safe and legal.  ..and even if that's a go, shouldn't there still be a couple of prerequisites?  i imagine you could recommend a few important reads given your background.  i've linked one below.  there are a lot of people i run into everyday that should NOT be eating any cactuses and i wouldn't want cacti to get the same negative attention salvia divinorum received after people attempted to use the plants recreationally (not medicinally) without first having an deep understanding of the traditional use of the plant and more importantly themselves.  as the ancient proverb goes "...a piece of wood can be used to both build a house or make a bullet." 

the doors of perception audiobook
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp6Dpd41xZg/url]   

The fact that you interpret pejuta which means medicine... as cacti... means you've done some research already. If you've already done that much research, then you probably don't need my preparations showing how to make traditionally prepared medicines. I do agree with you though that any bit of knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands and in the right hands that same knowledge is perfectly fine. The same can be said for knowing how to drive a car. Some are fine behind the wheel of a car... others not so much. While this may be an oversimplification of things... I do feel your frustration.
    As for having a deep understanding of traditional use of the sacrament in question and a deep understanding of oneself... as for these being important.... Let me address the later first. Many partake of these sacraments to gain a better understanding of themselves and the world around them or at least that is what is thought by many to be had from ingesting these substances. With that said, there are a great many ceremonies that exist in many cultures that have a similar aim. The vision quest which in Lakota is hanbleceya or crying for a dream... is one such ceremony. Not that the Lakota have a monopoly on the vision quest. Many other Native cultures have their own vision quest. At its roots, the vision quest in the Lakota version is a deprivation of food, water, sleep, etc., etc. It is thought that through this deprivation that the body is purified and energy or medicine that would normally go to bodily processes such as breaking down food, defecating, etc. is freed up to allow one to experience a different world. Please, let me go further to state that anyone wanting to experience anything more potent than Salvia divinorum or any cacti induced experience for that matter need go no further than their own bodies. You need no special training, money, or any other b.s. that someone may say you need. What you need to have this experience is simply the time to devote and the will to see it through. I see many complain about how rights are restricted and certain things are not allowed and how they are being striped of this chance to experience the divine or this or that... these are all just excuses however. The freedom of religion act was not signed until 1978 in America and even then that freedom was conditional. If you think there is freedom of religion... I think you have blinders on. There are enough restrictions on what we are allowed to perceive and how we perceive and that is the basic premise behind many of these ceremonies. It is about letting go of these misconceptions and self dialogue we have been trained to accept as normal and true and right. The method of vision quest that I personally went through was to fast for four days without food, water, or sleep. Simply standing for 4 days in this manner... that is one of the traditional Lakota ways. I chose to go up in that traditional manner. What I wish to say about it is this... no plant, cacti, etc. can compare with the experience that one can gain naturally in this method. So long as the body and mind are not outlawed these types of experiences will be free and available to anyone who wishes to truly understand and have these types of experiences. Interestingly enough, the Taoist had their own vision quests as well. http://www.universal-tao.com/dark_room/enlightenment.html
I insert a link to the later as many are familiar with one style or another of Native American vision quest and not so many are familiar with other cultures vision quests. The bottom line is that it is my personal belief that we are not as free as we think we are and we are not as bound as we think we are either. There is good to be had from being a follower just as there is good to be had from setting out on ones own and trying to figure things out without any outside influence. Who am I to decide who should be qualified to know themselves and who is not qualified? How am I to truly know who will benefit and who will not from a particular practice? In the traditional manner, pregnant women partake of pejuta and talk of how the baby dances in the womb. There is no age limit or restriction.... I'm not sure who owns the spirit and who is qualified to demand prerequisites in any real sense, but I know many will try to sell you on the need for this or that. For me, I see that there are people that may be looked at as guides as they have been there and done that before. They may color the waters good or bad and their guidance maybe needed or maybe not. I can tell you that there is a colorful experience to be had no matter which road you take and that in the end one has to deal with any action whether it is legal, illegal, safe, logical, illogical, etc... in the end it is the individual who has to deal with the repercussions of any of those actions and that is as it always has been. As I repeat, the freedom of religion act was not signed in America until 1978. Before that, there was no freedom of religion and even then... that freedom came with strings and was no true and absolute freedom at any rate. If a cacti for instance is truly a sacred sacrament then how can it be reserved for just one group of people? How can one make it illegal for those not white to be catholic and partake of the catholic sacraments? It is all in how you view it, but is it morally right to exclude one race from any religion? Is it morally right for one group to have a monopoly on a sacrament? If there is a divine presence or spirit in a plant or cacti... is that spirit prejudiced against all other races? If there is truth to be had... is that truth not there if that truth is deemed illegal by one culture, but legal in many others? I don't wish to turn this into a philosophical debate so I'll leave it at this... I don't believe there is religious freedom in any real sense. I believe that if you believe we have religious freedom then you are deluded. I believe that any new experience must be approached with caution if there is no guidance. But then I am reminded of those little babies dancing in the womb without a care in the world to the medicine that is theirs. Where is their guide?

firstly, i agree with basically every word you wrote and am somewhat envious of how quickly you articulated your ideas.  in fact, i understand so deeply that religious freedoms are constrained that i am uncomfortable expressing myself candidly even anonymously in an online forum like this.  i worry that an overseer may misperceive my words.  i worry that words i type in will motivate someones kid to be hurt by some black market concoction.  ..so the last post served primarily as a disclaimer.  i am a gardener.  not a doctor.  i think this is an important distinction given the nature of the subject matter and the nature of the society to which we are intertwined.     

i couldn't agree with you more that certain plant medicines have helped some people tremendously (allegedly), but i believe that some people have been psychologically damaged by them as well.  i believe understanding what causes this fork in the experience is synonymous with understanding the cultural practices.  the four days you spent hungry and alone with only nature and your thoughts was not done in vain.  it was an integral and calculated part of the experience. 

i also couldn't agree with you more that the most truly amazing experiences can be found in every single second if you know how to look at it.  imagine how intricate the mechanics of something so simple as standing up and taking a breath of fresh air.  this pile of bloody neurones makes millions of tiny calculations to manipulate the unaware musculoskeletal system.   millions of chemical signals swapped across every micrometer of this machine in complete perfection.  then its innate urge to draw in sustenance particles takes over and it widens these inner sinuses allowing for the intake of invisible life providing particles.  particles that are mostly empty space.  and are somehow shared for eternity.  amazing.  and that's just one way of looking at one simple overlooked detail in an infinity of amazement. 

i'm not sure about during pregnancy though.  although it doesn't seem to be teratogenic from the limited information i can find - the four day fast seems dangerous to a developing fetus. 

thanks for the thought provoking post and links.


...no one got my joke about the bullet.  bullets are not made out of wood.   

Nice one indeed. Everything is in the perspective of the individual and the society. This includes those things that are most often overlooked. I also believe you are right to have concern for all the counts you mention. Good one by the way.

so i watched a 5 part documentary series this weekend which is also relevant to this topic.  it was called "we shall remain"  for some reason this was not shown in history class.  i knew some of this to some extent but... wow.       

part 1 of 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYAdf-oGc8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgFXxD_RPdA

This man here, Leonard Crowdog was the spiritual leader of Wounded Knee. He is recognized as the spiritual leader of over 49 tribes. English was his second language and he is perhaps the last Lakota who was taught the traditional ways from his elders without the influence of white culture as he was kept out of white schools. He went on this first vision quest at 13 if memory serves me. This man is responsible more than any other for the legalization of the Native American Church in the late 70's under president Jimmy Carter. He is a powerful speaker. I sundanced at his place, Paradise, in the early 90's. What can I tell you other than it is absurd that there are laws regulating who can practice and how you can practice a religion that existed long before there were European laws in this country. We exist in a land that prides itself on freedom of religion and yet we have laws that regulate a cacti that is looked upon as a sacrament by the people that follow the red road, the NAC, roadmen, etc.... and religion should not be enforced or held illegal by those that believe in the freedom of religion on which we pride ourselves.... We are not a nation that has true freedom of religion and we never have been. To believe in these things is to be deluded by the government, by the public school system, and most importantly ourselves. Amazingly, pejuta is deemed illegal. Pejuta grows slowly and is available in ever decreasing quantities in the states. We are effectively exterminating a belief system slowly and surely while many other cacti that grow faster and are also potent remain legal? There is a hypocrisy at work here when we consider that we have freedom of religion in the states as even our first nations do not have true freedom of religion as they have so many rules regulating how, who, and when. When I can go to home depot and acquire cacti with the same questionable properties as the sacred pejuta and I can grow that cacti easier then I have to wonder... just where are our priorities?

i agree completely.  it seems the absurdity and hypocrisy run deep.  so deep most of us remain unaware.  in some ways his point about already being handcuffed applies to everyone.  as for the illegality of certain plants, it seems at the heart of this might be both conflicting definitions of individual sovereignty and the inability to obtain a patent on naturally occurring compounds.  it clearly has nothing to do with safety or efficacy.  i'm stunned at how we collectively accept giving amphetamines to children who find history class boring while locking supposedly "free" adults in cages for sampling from the incredible flora of this planet.  it's clear far more people are harmed by sanctioned drugs like alcohol, tobacco and the semisynthetic opioids.  people are generally becoming more aware of this so i see the tables of society beginning to turn.  still unfortunate so many were hurt. 

I agree, we are handcuffed by society, culture, and even ourselves. I remember talks that I have had with various medicine men as well as general practitioners. Some believe only those of 3/4 blood should be allowed to participate in ceremonies, some believe 1/4 is okay. Others believe that religion should not have a blood quota. Others think the old way should be kept pure and unadulterated and yet others have adopted elements of Christianity into their ceremonies having a picture of Jesus present at the peyote ceremonies and even on the altar. Others would argue that the white man is robbing them of their culture when they take elements from it and introduce it into their own... and yet we see the same happening in reverse and it is okay. The bottom line seems to be that whoever is doing the talking and in power is the right one and has the right view and everyone else is wrong. Religion is just like culture... it adapts, changes, evolves, or it goes extinct. That is my view and I'm just as guilty as the others as I think I'm right, but I'm also open to debates either way and not too wrapped up in needing to be right. The Macaw feather has been adopted by many and introduced into the beautiful beadworked peyote stitched fans used in ceremonies and we all know that these feathers are not native here in the USA. The bottom line is items, ideas, etc... they flow or not. They can be like a running water in a stream or they can stagnate like a pond that does not drain. We can choose to remain handcuffed or we can choose to be free. I for one love the sound of a peyote drum with the water inside. As it the water ripples inside with each beat so too does the sound change. The effects of the rattle and the fan... in the end these are all just tools used in the trade to facilitate changes in the psyche of those that are there to experience life in a different way than might otherwise be possible. As the old saying goes, why reinvent the wheel if it works..... That does not mean to me that one can't or shouldn't try to improve on the wheel.

good point about being handcuffed by ourselves.  the more i practice mindfulness the more i realize this to be true.  this makes me wonder if living truly unrestrained is only accessible through the ultimate psychedelic experience, death.  only then are we free from our fears and obligations.  only then are we free from the limitations of this ever failing human incarnation. 

anyways, i believe that all of the people you described are right.  i believe you are right.  and i am right.  i even believe jihadi john, nancy grace and joseph stailn were right until the moment they chose to infringe of the freedoms of others. 
projecting beliefs where they are not welcome is a cancerous social behaviour no matter what direction it's coming from.  hopefully, the truth will catch on eventually.

as for the debate over blood fractions, i consider myself to be native to this planet- not to take anything away from any historical injustices.  to me, all other suggestions are social constructs.  we are all composed of recycled dinosaur farts.  we were all ejected from the same infinitely swirling molecular soup.  we all have nearly identical self sustaining mechanical blueprints forging our cells.  i consider everyone to be of the same substance. 

i agree with you about culture and religion.  they come and go just as entire species do.  just as entire solar systems do.

the experience as you describe sounds incredible.  i don't think id be able to tie one of those though.   
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5DLx9Xgk8E

The first time I heard a water drum was out on Crowdog's Paradise at the Sundance. To me, it was truly incredible hearing those drum beats roll over those hills. The trick to working with rawhide or leather when you need it to stretch is to soak it in warm water first. When it dries it will be even tighter than it was when you made your instrument. Yuwipi rattles are another instrument that is very important to the Lakota and generally only used in Lowampi or Yuwipi ceremonies. Peyote rattles or gourd rattles are made differently from those and are generally a bit more decorative as one type of rattle is used in the light and the other is used in darkness. Music is definitely a part of these ceremonies and without it much of the experience is lost. There is much symbolism involved in the making of these instruments. http://www.crazycrow.com/crafts/tying-up-peyote-water-drum.php
That will complement the post you made. There are some peyote songs down lower that you may be interested in listening to.

As for your mention of death, I was told prior to Sundancing that some have been known to die during that ceremony. As it was explained to me, they give into the spirit and choose not to return. I look at the elements of ritual, sacraments, etc. as tools that can be adapted by those that know how to use them. These tools are not static nor do they belong to one culture. The Taoists went into caves by themselves in a similar manner to how many Native American cultures vision quested. Jesus fasted for 40 days in the desert... another type of vision quest. The main types of vision quest I have been exposed to along the Lakota path consisted of either standing for four days and nights without food, water, or sleep. Another method was to stand buried beneath the Earth. This was done by digging out a hole or finding a natural hole and covering it so as to obstruct light. Still another way is buried laying down and to many this is harder as it is easier to fall asleep and should not be attempted until you have done one of the other ways. Still another method that is used is to go inside of an inipi or sweatlodge for the same duration. This is obviously done sitting up and has the added benefit of having the ability to have large stones brought in. The stones mind you are generally glowing red and if done in the traditional manner is much hotter than any sauna you could imagine. I've been in sweat lodges were it is not uncommon to leave with blisters on your back. You have to know what your doing with many of these tools as it is very easy to overdue it and seriously injure or kill someone if you don't know what your doing.

cool i'm checking out these songs right now.  just sucks i have no idea what their saying.  i can definitely see how this complements the cactus. 

and blisters?  wow.  is the shape of the structure partially to blame for that?  must be reflecting back onto them somehow.  still that's nuts.  this reminds me of a poorly done documentary i once saw where the documentarian refused to take the medicine and was terrified of the sweat lodge.  i found it a bit laughable.  worth a watch though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSVd7f2j_Oc

what could you tell me about the experience of standing outside awake for 4 days?  that certainly takes an incredibly strong mind.  would you share what you saw or realized? 

I've done the Lakota vision quest several times. Since this is a Pejuta thread... I will entertain you with the memories of a vision quest done with Pejuta. Mind you, I have generally do not use Pejuta on a vision quest as it is not needed, but it can certainly alter the speed or onset of experiences. Let me begin with the basics of how a vision quest is supposed to work as it was relayed to me.
First, there is the reason to vision quest and then there is formed the intent to vision quest. If the reason for vision questing is sufficiently strong then the intent grows as one prepares oneself for this experience. The preparation phase can and does often take up to a year before one is ready to vision quest after declaring ones intent. Traditionally, as I was taught, one declares your intent formally by offering tobacco and or a pipe at the very beginning to a spiritual leader, medicine man, yuwipi man, etc. It is at this time that you discuss your reasons and if accepted you will begin more serious preparation. You will make prayer ties in the colors of the 6 dirctions most generally for a vision quest. Prayer ties are looked at as books that are read by the spirits that will visit you and form the boundary of your altar where you are to stand. Prayer flags are also made and are much bigger with tails that stream down the lengths of the small trees or staffs they are attached to. Both prayer ties and prayer flags are filled with tobacco and serve also as offering to the spirits. So, the making of these things must be done in a mindful way. You have to have the intent and reason filling your every movement while you are making these so they are imbued with these thoughts, emotions, etc. The serve to prepare you and to prepare the spirit world with a ready guide to what you need. Mind you, what you need may be different from what you wish. It is generally expected that you will go to as many inipi or sweatlodges as you can during this year of preparation. As a general rule, at least one sweat lodge a week is to be expected, but there are no real rules. Many may sweat multiple times in a day and some may sweat many times in a week. The sweat lodge is another ceremony in and of itself that has much symbolism surrounding it so I will not try to do it justice here.... suffice it to say that it is viewed as a means of purification at the simplest level as well as a tool to become more in harmony with the world.
I will jump to the actual experience here and describe what I have felt and seen. Day one, I am feeling a bit afraid as night is upon me and I am all alone. I hear trees breaking and falling as there is a storm. I have been told never to leave the altar under any circumstances so I stand still. I hear a rattle snake beneath my feet and I am scared to look down. This keeps me still and alert however. In the morning hours I attempt to lower my head down. I move my head at the speed of the movement of the hour hand of a clock in my mind. I am paying attention to my speed as I can hear the snake that could kill me at my feet. I have no real plan other than to bring the snake into view. At what I think is perhaps midday...I finally gaze upon the snake... that is really a moth beating its wings against my pipe as it fights with an ant for its life. I think about how powerful those two are. In a battle for their lives the entire night without stop. How weak I am in comparison with my thoughts of hunger. My thoughts of how painful my feet are beginning to feel simply standing there.... not having to fight anything other than my own weakness.  My thoughts change to thoughts of admiration and wonder and this gives me strength to continue. Time begins to slip away from me and seconds seem like days. The best I can use to describe this experience is perhaps the experience that one has Sally D... Next I see a plague of flies surrounding  me and landing on my beautiful prayer ties. I think, they must be attracted to the sweet pipe tobacco I used. How in the world I thought to use sweet tobacco is beyond me. I am now kicking myself figuratively for this mistake. I know I am not allowed to kill anything or defend myself from attack while on this journey. I can only stand and allow these flies to surround myself and land on me as they will. I try to relax and eventually over many hours I would guess... but it could be seconds.. there is no real way to know... I look at the flies and they are all turning into beautiful blue lights. I've been told that spirits often manifest as colors and take the form of various size orbs of light and these seem to appear to be about the size of small marbles lighting up the night and dancing around me. You come in and out of these types of experiences when on a vision quest. During the daylight hours in a moment of clarity one of my supporters came up and offered me some tea. I thought that this was unusual as there is generally no contact with supporters other than hearing their voices in song from a far off distant. I was deathly thirsty and as tea was being offered I assumed there must be a reason for it. Whatever the reason, I was weak and was not going to turn down any source of hydration at this stage in the game. I had been dreaming of ice cream, hot dogs, pork, you name it in the many moments of lucidity I had. These dreams tortured me rather than helped me, but still I indulged them. So, when in this weakened state I was offered tea... I took the jug and guzzled it down trying to fill every inch of my stomach before the tea could be jerked from me. My supporter and dear friend told me... hey, slow down their fellow. This is medicine. By then, it had hit me. This was peyote tea done sun tea style and as such it lacked a strong peyote taste. The visions received after this were no more spectacular than those received before the ingesting of the tea, the main difference at this point was that they were more fluid and without the interruptions that can be seen with a typical vision quest where one comes back to this world and this reality for periods of time that can seem to stretch out to an eternity. Time then for me at least and in relation to vision quest time is thus sped up and the time spent in the spirit world is more full. What I mean by this is... in a vision quest you can see spirits or elements that will seem to be a part of this world such as when the flies where a part of this world and yet spirit. Elements within this world and those of the spirit world can exist at the same time or you can be a part of either world in its totality and sometimes you don't know which is which. With the addition of tea to this experience you are more fully involved in that other world or spirit world and totally leave this world behind. I hope this helps your understanding of what was experienced, but to be completely honest these types of experiences can not be put into words. There is no way for me to be as brutally honest about how much I craved such mundane things as different types of food, companionship, etc. during these days or how such a short period of 4 days can seem like many moments of eternity shared with losses of time where moments of vision that seemed like minutes revealed that many hours had passed... so much sometimes that one wondered whether you were up there for 7 days... panic would settle in and then you might feel like... yes.... I should go down. Something has happened and I could save lives by going back now and every moment I wait things could be getting worse. These excuses are the excuses we give ourselves when we are on such a vision quest... we just need to find the right excuse to allow us to come down and stop our vision and return to normal life. Please, take this with a grain of salt as this is a reflection of one of my vision quests and as the old saying goes... your mileage may vary. What is certain is that for anyone undergoing such an experience in whatever form or tradition you will face challenges and some of those challenges will be unique to your own self... your own individual weakness or fear. Each time is different for me, and yet there always remains elements that remain the same.

The shortened version is that Pejuta makes the experience easier in many respects while one is vision questing with this medicine and time goes faster over a longer period of time while one is experiencing this medicine. Pejuta taken in conjunction with a vision quest also seems to pull one deeper into these visions than would be possible with either technique alone for such a long duration. This is not to say that you can't go as deep with a vision quest alone, but simply that the duration of each dip into that alternate reality or spirit world is not as long objectively. Subjectively... the experience of time is such to the person experiencing it that one gets lost in time and one wonders whether moments have passed or days regardless of the method or combination of methods. Much of this is my own personal bias or beliefs taken into account only after the experience is over and I can look at it through a different perspective. Pejuta is an excellent tool that enables one to experience the vision quest or elements of it at least. Pejuta definitely adds to and deepens the experience of a vision quest, but not perhaps in the ways that you think they might even after reading my account. What I am trying to say here is that you can vision quest and vision quest many times and your experience will be just as powerful or more so than your many attempts to use Pejuta to produce a similar effect. The two in combination definitely provide a synergy that is hard to duplicate if it is even possible to do so... I have no idea. It definitely requires less willpower to vision quest with Pejuta than it does without it so this too affects the experience as their is not as much internal conflict with your internal dialogue with Pejuta added to the vision quest experience. For this reason, I would suggest that if one were going to utilize Pejuta during a vision quest that one use this medicine only for the tail end of the experience as it may be too much to deal with if done in the middle of the experience, but perhaps this is just my individual bias.

wow.  thanks for sharing.  definitely entertaining.  i was more interested in hearing about the vision quest without pejuta.  the sleep deprivation, the fears.. the places your mind must go.. indescribable I'm sure. 

i could see how the medicine would make it easier if timed correctly, but could be disastrous if not.  you must need a full week for this with recovery time included. 

Much of what you are asking about is internal dialogue as that is what you are left with. Internal dialogue and nature. You begin to realize how things you never knew you placed much importance on actually take up much of your internal dialogue. You are left naked with your own insecurities, fears, wants, desires, etc. and it is this that challenges us the most. The vision quest acts like a magnifying glass to these things as that is all that is left besides nature and your will. Will is focused via your thoughts/prayers or intent and if the desire or will is not strong enough you will not make it. This is why your resolve and preparation is important. Their is also an element of physical pain. The pain that comes from standing on your feet all day without even a moment to sit down can get unbearable for some. To say your feet will ache may be an understatement to say the least. Pain is something that the inipi or sweatlodge is helpful for inducing and it is this pain or suffering both psychological and physical that must be overcome through focus. The same can be said of the Sundance which I have also done. When you Sundance you typically have deer antlers piercing your chest, back, or arms. These antlers, talons, even choke cherry is used... are attached to ropes that you then dance with until the skin breaks. To put this in visual terms... your skin is very strong and it is very easy to dance so that you are almost horizontal to the ground and still not have your skin break. For me, when I Sundanced I was so light that I could literally run forwards and then turn around at the last moment and be carried up into the air a few feet without breaking. The principal behind all of these tools is the same. They promote suffering that can only be overcome with focus. If your focus is strong enough then you will not feel the pain of the steam from the sweatlodge, you will not feel the pain from the antlers in your chest, and you will not feel the pain from standing for four days and four nights without sleeping. The truth is that these ceremonies get easier over time as your focus gets better. The truth is that there will be times though that despite having years of practice doing these types of ceremonies that the pain will again feel unbearable. It is hard to always be strong and to be strong and focused in every moment. These are simply tools that can be used to develop focus, will, determination... and they are in no ways the only tools, but they do work fast as pain and suffering is a great motivator. The duration of these different ceremonies is different and the severity of each can be altered and it is through the gradual use of these tools that one is able to more easily participate in the ceremonies that come after them. To think of it another way, your focus may become so strong that all other thoughts, emotions, physical sensations leave you and you are left with your focus.
As it was told to me, the vision quest works because the body is no longer bogged down with food and water. This frees up energy to other processes of the mind that may not have enough fuel to work otherwise. Portions of your mind also shut down as you become extremely bored of the old internal dialogue you have going on in your head like a broken record player. Many of these thoughts... most of them are so mundane that it becomes surprising as to how much wasted energy and time goes into them. Many of these thoughts and feelings you may realize you have absolutely no need for and in fact... many of these thoughts and feelings are harmful to your wellbeing and only by examining them through the microscope of a vision quest can one finally process some of them and let them go. So, you learn to let go. You let go of the pain and the need to suffer. You realize that while you may be different... that difference is nowhere near as great as what you thought it was. You realize that we are all people, we are all related in our humanness. That we are just a spark of life not really any different from any other spark of life and thus... equally valuable and invaluable as the next. Or perhaps you don't realize any of these things. It is different for each person, but the mechanics of how a vision quest works remains the same for each person. It is said that whatever your worst fears are you will face on a vision quest. How well you face those fears will determine how great a vision you have or whether you will even make it. It is also said that you will not face any fears that you are not ready to face and that you can not face. It boils down to resolve and how important it is to you. If it is simply a fleeting desire or a desire to have some unique experience you will not make it. The mind is a very powerful thing. You may feel physically sick to your stomach or have all the signs of the flu, strep, etc... upon giving up on your desire to quest these feelings may instantly leave you. This is how powerful such an experience can be. You may not be able trust your own thoughts and feelings at such a time and this is why it is important to have supporters that can watch from afar so as not to interfere with your experience. Ideally, supporters are never seen, but can be heard as they sing songs of encouragement. If a supporter is seen, it is generally because the spiritual leader, medicine man, etc. has told them to check on you. As the old saying goes, it is always better to err on the side of caution with these ceremonies. Nowadays, your supporter may use binoculars to check up on you as well. This is done not to invade your privacy, but to ensure that you are indeed safe and well. So, this is done if it is done for as short a period of time as is needed to determine that you are indeed healthy. This is another reason for song. Song by the supporters gives you strength. Song sung by the vision quester lets the supporters know that the quester has strength or is needing some strength. So, encouragement may be given back in the form of song by the supporters at the same time or shortly after the questers song. The sound of the voice, the inflections, etc. give important cues as to how well the quester is doing without the need for intrusive binocular vision so to speak. So long as there are songs to be heard every few hours it can be assumed that everything is going well. Again, the voice of the quester is listened to in detail. It can be a very powerful and moving experience for the supporters as well.
I will describe a few more visions for you so you can have a small taste of what a vision quest is like through my eyes. In one vision I saw a pair of pants hung in a watchtower in the middle of the forest I was in. This was the only thing out of place or different that I could detect. Now, you must understand that this watchtower and the pair of pants looked as real as any other object one might see in waking reality and no other objects were changed. That is the nature of a vision on a vision quest. Sometimes only one element or two changes. Sometimes, your entire world changes. Another vision I had... a butterfly floated through the forest and sat on a log. As the butterfly opened and closed its wings it became an eye and the log became a wolf. So, the butterfly was the eye of the wolf that was once a log... again.. the wolf was as real as any wolf one might see in reality and one begins to wonder... was it a log or is it a real wolf? Was the log the vision and the butterfly the vision? Or am I looking at a very real and dangerous wolf? These thoughts go through your head as you can not tell one reality from the next. You are kept safe only by the thoughts that you have been told you are not allowed to hurt another creature while on a vision quest and you are not allowed to leave your altar.
Still yet another vision I had was a truck wreck. While sitting in the passenger seat I was thrown forward and to the left as I watched the medicine man who was driving lose all his teeth across the steering wheel. When I came out of that vision I felt as if I was really in that wreck and I noted that I was not wearing my seat belt in the vision. I was also moving forward and impaled my chest on my pipe's altar pushing choke cherry into my chest as I came out of the vision. Months later I was still not forgetting to wear my seat belt when I got into the truck with that medicine man. I finally said, enough is enough... I'm not wearing my seat belt on this ride as I'm sure it had some symbolic meaning and I am letting this fear affect me every time I get into the vehicle with this man. The accident happened exactly as it happened in the vision. What made this particular vision have more power for me was that it was shared with others after the vision quest months before it unfolded and yes... the medicine man actually lost its teeth just as in the vision as well.
Yet another vision I had was of floating through a green and black field of light that resembled a field or meadow with the black being a canyon. My perspective changed and then the field became a cliff with a cave running along its width and it became apparent that I was flying and upon entering the cave I was engulfed in blackness. In the blackness there was only one source of light and those were my Sundance pins and that is how I knew I would Sundance and I had no choice in the matter. Those are my own personal visions and as such you can interpret them as you will. Disbelief was how I interpreted some of them when they happened and even after they happened. I can only say that many do not talk about such experiences in depth as you can not explain in words something that must be experienced. I do understand the need or the desire to try to understand however as it is much easier to read and then decide... nope... sounds to hard for me and definitely not worth the investment when something else might give me equal results or even better results with less time. To that, I would state that these are all simply tools and there are many tools. Some tools may work faster for some and may not be best for others. Do I think these tools are needed to examine yourself and to come to deep realizations about oneself or ones place in the world? Absolutely... they are not needed. There are many tools and many methods to examine ones own mind and to effect changes in ones own mind so why would you want to engage in something so difficult and demanding? The answer is for most... that you would not want to do this and if you have any doubts about it those doubts will soon leave you after you start your vision quest and you will know that you absolutely do not want to be their and you would much rather be elsewhere.

wow.  the car accident one must have been truly unbelievable.  i have heard about people having this type of experience with certain hallucinogenic drugs but never experienced it.  i feel like trying to interpret that but of course never could as it exists only in the context of your own mind.  amazing though. 

ok i just watched a couple of sun dances.  not what i expected.  if i do this more than once i'll definitely be big tittyflapflaps.  i imagine this must be from where modern suspensions evolved.  i would still be way less intimidated by this than staying awake for 4 days in the forest.  i can honestly say that as strong willed as i think i am i don't think i could do that.  whether it's the physical pain or a rabbit rustles a bush in the middle of the night i think i would not succeed.

the butterfly eye wolf log story i can relate to.  there have been a number of times in my life i have stared at things so long my mind morphs them into different objects.  likely never with the degree of clarity that can be achieved through sleep depravation. 

there are a few aspects of this concept that i find intriguing.  what must be gained in terms of reacquiring some of the novelty of experience that seemingly tapers off with time.  also experiencing such a shift in the perception of time and obviously facing my own mind. 

i don't understand the significance of the choke cherry though. 

http://religions.booklounge.org/index.php/Religions-of-Plains-Native-Americans/the-sun-dance-and-other-ceremonies-of-the-oglala-division-of-the-teton-dakota.html

Everything tends to have more than one meaning. Choke cherry is mentioned at least 17 times in that article above. You can read the entire article and still have not understand what you are asking. Understanding has to take its time and to be honest the way I understand it is that I never will truly understand it all. I do think you are perceptive though, but it is more than perception it is about allowing the meaning to actually change your being, thought processes, emotions, etc. Only by changing yourself, growing more in harmony with yourself and nature... can you begin to process the true meaning behind these things. Admittedly, soaking up as much as you can intellectually can help... but only to a lesser extent. For what its worth, I don't think I will ever understand much, but what I can tell you is that when your experience becomes as such that you feel that your total being has changed or that your worldview has changed and altered how you think about everything then you have begun down that path. That is how I understand it at least and that is how it rings true for me. It is more than simply knowing the mechanics of the symbolism. It is about actually putting it to work and experiencing it and becoming that new experience and with that said it can also be looked at as a spiders web or a medicine wheel. There may be many spokes and you may be a spoke on a small wheel. This small wheel we will call your family. Then this wheel may form a part of another spoke including family and friends and so on and so forth. Only you may forget to add in trees, stones, birds, etc. into your circle. You have your own center and you are your own wheel. You have your own spokes that may consist of your thoughts, emotions, attachments, etc. Everything is connected. Those connections can be made stronger and such is the case when you feel a particular kinship with another person who is not family by blood, but feels closer than many of your blood relations. The same can be said that these connections grow stronger or more permanent when you have a particular attachment to a place that somehow makes you feel better simply by being there. In this way.. the spokes, centers, wheels.... are also like a web as they attract you and you can get caught in a thought, emotion, attachment. Instead of watching those attachments from the center you become trapped in on one the lines of the web so to speak. This is just one way I have learned to interpret the world. For me, this way was not a way I was brought up into until my teens so I had other world views or cultural views taught to me so it was a true shock for me when this perceptual shift began to truly occur for me. I will not say it is a wrong way or that my old way of seeing the world was right. I will simply say they are different ways of viewing the world that affect how we perceive other in it, ourselves, and even reality. That is my long winded way of saying that the choke cherry is sacred, but then so is everything so I haven't really told you anything.

no you have told me more than i could even absorb after reading it four times.  i think i get what your saying about the choke cherry.  essentially it has major significance due to its wide variety of applications and a deep, lengthy history of use that cannot possibly be captured in a simple written response rather it must be almost experienced.  it would be like trying to explain a smell or a feeling.  when you wrote 'even choke cherry is used' i imagined the contextual plant must have had some pain causing quality like thorns or the ability to cause itching/burning of the skin.  nevertheless that poorly worded question of mine yielded a brilliant response, so i can't complain.   

i wonder if we even really 'understand' anything or if we just simply possess the mechanisms for storing, linking and retrieving bits of information at such a high rate it creates the illusion of understanding in the mind of the perceiver.  it seems to me i am capable of only one thought at any one time and my consciousness is never truly able to engulf an entire concept in a single instant.  maybe the exception to this could be thoughts of images or those pertaining to movement. 

i think i enjoy this concept of connectedness sometimes when i mediate.  i try to meditate on the concept of myself being composed of the same material as my surroundings.  breathing in the same molecules that the plants breath out.  it tends to create a momentary sense of peace of mind in an otherwise squirrelly brain.         

i have experienced only a few real perceptual changing moments in my experience thus far, but enough to realize more radical and paradigm shifting ones are likely to come.  also enough to know i have little control over this phenomenon- but likely still much more control than i allow myself to realize at this point in my life. 

I think you said it best when you explain how you and your surroundings are the same.... i.e. composed of the same materials. That you can share molecules with a plant as you exchange breaths with that plant. This is a truth that can not be denied. That way of looking at the world may seem like simple science, but it goes much deeper or can go much deeper than simply a realization of these facts and it can be filled with much emotional connection as well. The hardest part about a vision quest was not the sleep deprivation, pain, or fear for me. The hardest part was the isolation and the sudden lack of connection with others. This void is filled by a deeper connected feeling to the natural world. The long and short of it for me at least is that I realized I was empty inside and yet paradoxically full of false images of myself and my connections to the world. So, the vision quest for me was a death or a letting go of this false filling and a letting in of that which was more real or substantial and that is the very real connection to the natural world at large. The vision quest for me, was a letting go of that artificial stuff that is taught by society, teachers, parents, friends, etc. The realization that someone is not beautiful, ugly, stupid, worthless, or better than someone else. We are all equal and yet we can maintain some differences and it is these slight differences that make life bearable and not completely and mind numbingly boring.  The ability to simply be at peace and to let go.... Mind you, I still get caught up in the moment sometimes and I am no different than you or anyone else. I've had a certain types of experiences that I found valuable and I've chased after those experiences the same as anyone chases after those experiences they find valuable in life. The one thing I truly know and I don't know much... the mind is a very powerful tool and it can be manipulated very easily and is manipulated much of our lives by the programming we received learning how to be a part of this world from the moment we were born. To me, pejuta can be like a surgeons knife as can a vision quest, etc. The main differences in the two for me is that pejuta can work with little effort on the part of the person and for this reason it can be much more dangerous. A vision quest can be ended at a moments notice by the simple intent to stop. Pejuta may not be so forgiving. Both the vision quest and pejuta can give equally powerful visions. I think from hearing you talk that you have your own tools and you definitely have your own philosophy. I respect that. Your simple tool of seeing that you share the same molecules as other life, rock, trees, etc. is very much the same way that those on shamanic paths see the world. They may sometimes word it differently, but the feeling that can be harnessed and the way it shapes your thoughts begins to become a circular phenomenon where the thought engenders a feeling and the feeling strengthens the thought and around and around this process goes in different ways and deeper connections are formed between those thoughts and emotions and more thoughts begin to get tied into this such as your thoughts of sharing the molecules that you breath with the plants. This back and forth cyclical process is much the same that happens... but then I already said that. The point I'm trying to make is that you are already on a shamanic path to a certain extent as you have elements of your thoughts that are tied into that way of thinking. Everything is connected. We are all related. This is why you feel good when you are out in the woods, in the mountains, or at the beach. You are feeling that connection with nature. One thing that some people fail to realize or pay much notice to however is that you may feel more connected to one spot... but ten feet over... you don't feel that connection as strongly. This is how we subconsciously choose where to sit, where to relax, etc. We choose those places that we feel more comfortable in or more attracted to. We may often fail to contemplate why a spot ten feet over in the same woods does not attract us or feel as comfortable to us. Enough rambling.
Back to pejuta, it must be utilized with respect as it is very powerful. This is why I try to state... one button is enough. One button can have profound effects on the mind. In fact, I would say until you have learned how to experience one button that anything more is probably too much for the average person. But that is my bias and how I personally see it. I would much rather take the slow road than the fast when dealing with a medicine that I consider to be extremely power. Which is why I will share with you a technique I learned. You may wish to try it... modify it or discard it altogether, but you've already tried it to some extent so I will share with you something that I learned by listening to the teachings of another.

I was once told to prepare for a vision quest... since I could not sweat regularly.... that I could go out in the woods and find two different spots. The spots should be very close... within seeing distance of each other, but no closer than 7 feet or so. These spots could be a place that feels warmer or somehow more inviting than another. The other could feel colder, more distant, or simply not appealing. The spots need not be earth, but could be water... tree, stone, etc. Areas of land occupied, but in a natural setting was the gist of things. Upon finding these two spots or choosing these two areas, trees, cacti, etc.... I was told that I had to talk to these places, beings, etc. as I would any person. I should tell the more inviting one that I would spend a few moments with it every day for 28 days, but the first day would be shared with the place, tree, cacti, rock, etc. that felt less inviting, colder, etc. Mind you, you need not stay the whole day. What is needed is a commitment to a few minutes each day. So, for the first day a few minutes for both places. After that the rest of the 28 days is only spent with the more inviting place, spirit, etc. Now, the most important part of this exercise I was told was to talk to these places, beings, etc. as you would any other person. Now, to be honest that felt odd and out of place for me. I did as I was told. That first day, you have to explain that after the 28 days is up you will spend the next 28 days with the place that felt colder or less appealing. The same stipulation applied... you have to commit to a few minutes each day to talk to that spirit. You have to commit to physically going to that place. I was told that if I could do that that I would be given a gift. I was told also not to tell anyone else what I was doing. I was told that if I was able to keep this commitment without breaking it that I would change and that others would make note of that fact to me without me ever telling them anything as the change would be that noticeable.  I am sharing that gift with you as for me, it was a very powerful experience and one that I initially laughed at and felt awkward doing. Should you choose to try this exercise I can honestly tell you that for me at least... it bore fruit.
I will share with you one brief moment from this experience... I chose two different trees by the way the first time I did this exercise. I was sitting there in silence as while I did talk as required, I also sat and thought and sometimes just sat. My theory being that it was the time that was important and the keeping of the commitment to talk. I was never told I had to talk the whole time, so much of it was silent communication or simply relaxing. Sometimes I'd just go for a brief moment if my day was too hectic. I was going to keep my commitment no matter what, and so on some days I spent more time to make up for those days I spent less time. This day, I was spending more time and was just sitting there relaxed. Perfectly still, trying to think about the vision quest I would soon be on in the coming year. How, I needed to be able to be still or at least not worry about constantly moving as I knew I'd be confined to a small area as a vision quest altar is not very large and the sage you stand on makes a circle about as wide as your feet are... well on this day.... I had a chipmunk run up and into my hands. Now, that freaked me out and I moved and of course the chipmunk ran away. Later, I found that by being perfectly still during this exercise that this chipmunk would come back and so would some birds. I was pleasantly amazed at how close some of the wild animals would get to me... simply by my relaxing and not moving every three seconds. Now, I imagine that is nothing to many people, but to me it was a new experience and one of my first in learning how to slow down and relax. So, that is one very small lesson I learned. I assure you there were others and I don't want to color the experience for you too much so I will simply leave the instructions as they were told to me from that and relate to you this as a bit of extra. If you take with you a cacti you can alter that place and form yet another connection. Leave the other colder cacti or less appealing cacti at the other location or simply bring each one to their location each time... you see...... This connection forms.... That to me is the perfect way to truly get to know a medicine. You don't eat the medicine, drink the medicine, etc.... but you spend time with it. You grow the medicine, take care of the medicine, and you even confide in the medicine. This all goes back to the medicine wheel, the spiders web, etc. Your mind can be thought of as a spiders web. The world... every time you make a connection and you have a positive thought or emotion with it then that connection becomes stronger. Now, if that other person, spirit, medicine... also has positive thoughts, feelings, etc. then that connection grows stronger as well. That is how it was all taught to me and for what its worth... I didn't believe or understand it back then. I still don't believe I understand it, but I can tell you that if you have a moment... it is worth experimenting with to come to your own conclusions and your own insights. I felt extremely self conscious doing that exercise... that much I can tell you and not in a good way at first. Now, with all that said... its just a tool I was taught... just one exercise. It sounds like you have your own tools so, if you never try that tool you will have lost nothing as you can eat with a fork just as easily as you can chopsticks or vice versa.

wow...  right on, man.  there's a ton i want to say in response to that but i realize it's mostly just affirmation...  this connectedness concept is definitely the core of my own developing philosophy.  ..the description of what you experienced on the vision quest is what i think i have been referring to as ego death which i believe to have experienced less than a handful of times and only in small doses...  never for days on end.  not to mention it would be perceived as being much longer.  you must have had a real chance to really let that concept soak in.  how freeing that must have been psychologically.  my ongoing quest is really just to quiet this cognitive dissonance that i believe is created by my being forced to operate in a network of often frustrating and illogical social constructs.  i figure that means i need to get back to nature.  it means i must gain a deeper understanding of what is around me - of what has always been.  sadly, in some corners of this cruel asteroid connecting with nature also means freezing your ass off for part of the year.  so some of us will have to mostly meditate on these concepts for now.

the ball is rolling as for picking spots.  i have a few nice ones in mind.  i thought about around here but don't want to confirm my neighbours suspicions by talking to my lawn everyday for a month.  i can already kind of picture the developments that would come from such an activity and look forward to trying it.  i got goosebumps when you described the chipmunk coming up to you because i experienced something similar but never spelled it out like that inside my head.    i had spent everyday outside tending to my garden for months and one day I'm sitting in the grass and a chipmunk comes right up and lets me touch him.  he moved in a way that made me twitch and that of course made him take off.  but i think now that he had been there the entire time i had been there.  he watched me tend to the garden.  and slowly built up the understanding that i am safe to approach.  there was another consciousness there the entire time. ..something else to meditate on.  how many consciousnesses were there that summer, the fact that they are always there.  thousands.  millions.  all existing together at once most not even aware of the other.  all living and breathing from the same molecular soup.  and all caught up in their own internal chatter whatever it may be.  i will definitely try this thought experiment.  and i will definitely eat with chop sticks once in a while.  i can better appreciate one if i eat with the other. 

when you say one button, what size of a plant to you refer?  my understanding was that people would eat six or more large buttons (>6 cm) just to break threshold, allegedly.  and i definitely agree that not enough is most often favourable to too much with regards to medicines. 

I agree with you that if your medicine is that small that may be true. My first experience with pejuta was with a single dried specimen the size that just fit in the palm of my hand. A little over 4 inches in diameter. Specimens as small as you mention have not been allowed to live long enough in my opinion. I say this for many reasons. From a spiritual point of view, a grandfather pejuta, a large specimen is much revered and often takes its place in the center of an altar. It is considered that these specimens are particularly strong with medicine. So, age has an affect on the medicine from a traditional point of view. I just can't see harvesting a specimen so small for a ceremony. From another standpoint, you want your medicine to have lived long enough to have passed on its genetic potential to at least a few hundred seedlings and that you have cut it so that it will reproduce more clones of itself. Now, some teachers I have known would have you eat one of these babies roots and all for your first time. This is not for the alkaloid content, but more as a symbolic gesture of accepting the entire medicine into your being. You are not getting to know part of the plant or part of the medicine, but the entire medicine. This is generally done with a small seedling with great care not to damage any of the roots. My personal philosophy is that this is not something that needs to be done, but if it is done it should be done with a seedling of parents you have personally grown so as to ensure that you can make the cross again and again. If using a seedling in that manner, you would also want to consume a single specimen the size of your hand to go with it. As for numbers... numbers have meaning in many religious traditions, but size is also of importance. For me, specimens the size you mention should only be consumed if that is their size when dried. This is more than a personal preference as I have been taught that the older larger specimens have a stronger connection to the spirit. Some prefer to age their medicine and allow it to dry out completely. This to me tastes like I would imagine cardboard must taste if eaten plain and not made into a tea. I assure you that one decent sized specimen is all that you will need if it has been allowed to grow on its own roots for at least a year and it is the size or almost the size of the palm of your hand. Traditionally however, medicine may be consumed as a single specimen, tea, etc. or it may be passed at different intervals as determined by the person/roadman leading the ceremony. When this medicine is passed around many may choose not to have any more and simply pass the medicine to the next. Some may take medicine every round. In short, it is a personal decision as to how much medicine to take. I will tell you that we had a Mexican come to one of our ceremonies and he did not speak Lakota or English. He thought, that it was disrespectful not to have the medicine each time it was  passed around. For much of the next day he sat there and smiled and drooled to some extent. I can not tell you how much medicine he imbibed, but please understand that this was in a ceremonial context and the average person could not have handled that amount of medicine if it were not for the fact that it was in a very closely controlled ceremonial context.
Let me relay yet another vision I have had while still new to the Lakota traditions. I was in Paradise during the Sundance as a supporter and performed additional duties such as security guard at night. During the last few hours of daylight, Leonard asked me to help him carry a barrel back from another camp. When we got their I saw the barrel and upon trying to lift it, realized it was full. I attempted to pour it out so we could carry it back and was told sharply not to pour it out. I agreed as Leonard was and is perhaps the most respected Lakota medicine man alive today. We lifted the barrel up and carried it back... Foot by foot, and inch by inch... until we finally made it back to our camp. I was exhausted. I was expecting something special for such a terrific feat. Leonard went into his tipi and left me outside to guard his area and the barrel. He then came back out a few hours later and asked told me I could have as much tea in the barrel as I wanted. I was pissed. A school bus load of kids came up and started talking to me. They asked me if the could have some tea. I said, sure. I could not drink enough tea to pay for what I felt I had earned. How in the heck could a tea possibly pay for so many hours of back breaking work carrying that barrel back to camp? Why had we simply not gotten a vehicle and driven the medicine back? That would have made more sense to me..... So, these kids lined up and stayed in line for a good while. I would cut back in line and fill my coffee with a little of the tea so I would not have too much caffeine and hopefully be able to fall asleep after my guard shift was over. The kids left after a few rounds and I eventually started adding larger amounts of tea to my coffee until I was drinking plain tea. I could now tell this tea was the equivalent of lipton iced tea in taste and very good. Then it happened. Leonard came out of his tipi and asked me if there were any buttons left. I looked at him perplexed and told him matter of factly as I looked down at my shirt. No buttons. He asked if anyone had come by and I told him some children came, but they all wanted tea. I explained that I gave them as much as they wanted for my share in helping carry the barrel back. He slammed his tipi door making a swooshing sound and I thought. What got into him? I don't have any buttons... this is just a tee-shirt. Then it hit me. I suddenly remembered that buttons was slang for pejuta or peyote. I removed the lid from the barrel and peered inside. It was a foot or so deep in buttons. I then took a mental inventory and realized the medicine was already working on me. I filled my pockets with the buttons and took them with me down to the stream at the edge of Paradise after my shift was over. The moon was high in the sky. The night sky was full of different colored lights floating about and the moon started to swim in the stream. It was at this point that one of the other security guards came over to me and asked me if I had seen any children. It seems that fifty or so kids had gone missing and we had to search for them. It was at this point that I suddenly remembered the kids again and I explained very calmly that I had given them pejuta tea and they were probably off in the countryside wandering around. While, this may have created a panic in some cultures... this culture was different.

ok thanks for the clarification there.  you are certainly right about other cultures not handling things the same way.  could you imagine a bunch of white soccer moms finding out the whole team is on some crazy drug!  i guess this points to a deeper understanding of the plant than i have.  i would immediately worry about everything from them getting hit by cars to them getting abducted by catholic molesters.  i would definitely want to ensure supervision.  in saying that, i'm sure the majority of them had a good time. 

have you ever had what you felt was too much pejuta?     

You are quite right in having a deeper understanding or different perspective being of help. First, you have to understand that their was only one road nearby and that road is not traveled very much. Second, you are out in the middle of nowhere. You can walk for a very long time up and down rolling hills only seeing cacti, pines, turkey, etc. So, your completely submersed in nature just a little away from Paradise and Paradise is a camp made of tipis and tents set up for the ceremonies. Everyone at such a place has gathered there to participate in the Sundance as a participant or a supporter. At the same time, sweat lodges, inipi, are going on at all times of day and even into the night so there is a sacred fire burning at all times. There is another tipi set up for pejuta ceremonies that go on every night as well. So, at this time of year when the choke cherries are ripened all of these ceremonies are going on every night. In addition, you have lowanpi and yuwipi ceremonies going. Medicine men from many tribes gather from all over the world at this Sundance. You have Dineh medicine men at Lakota ceremonies... you have people of all color and religious backgrounds sharing in these ceremonies. So, it is a different world from the one many people are accustomed to. It is definitely seen as a relief that the children are simply taking a sacred sacrament and listening to the sounds of the water drum that are constantly rolling over the hills mixed with the sounds of voices in song which is prayer. With that said, I have never heard of anyone not having an enjoyable experience with pejuta when done in such a setting. Even the Mexican who did not understand that he did not have to eat pejuta each time it was offered suffered only from smiling too much and drooling. If this is a bad thing, then I don't know what is good.
Now, when you ask... have you ever felt like you had too much pejuta I can honestly say no. I will state however, that I had no more than one button the first time I had pejuta and that was enough for me at that time. Many of the preparations are made in such a manner that a cupful of pejuta has to be drank in order to feel the effects of the medicine and traditionally many let some time pass between cups of tea. It is not a race to see how much you can imbibe. Getting to know this medicine is therefore a slow process that involves or should involve proper setting and again... a slow introduction. You don't start out bench pressing 300 lbs your first time at the bench. You don't start out drawing beautiful portraits in oils that sell for a few thousand dollars. Why medicine should be approached with any other perspective is beyond me.... slow.... everything is in moderation and in the proper setting and with the proper mindset. If you go into a traditional sweatlodge that is meant for those going on a vision quest and this is your first time... you are likely only to last for the first pouring of the water. You will not make it through the entire ceremony. So, you are see, this is how you must approach the medicine. With respect and the proper amount of time to get to know the medicine. Fear for your very life would result if you were to go into a sweatlodge ceremony that was meant for those going on a vision quest and this was your first sweat experience. For this reason, these things are taken into account and a separate ceremony would be held for those new to the experience. Something lighter and easier to handle. I've also never gotten sick with pejuta. I think problems if they arise only arise when you go into such a new experience thinking that you need to do something insane like bench press 300 lbs the first time out at the gym or you expect to be able to paint like Picaso having never picked up a brush. If you go into such a ceremony or attempt to use a medicine like that you are asking for trouble and you already have the wrong mindset. These are people that have grown up with pejuta and it is no different to them then it would be to you if you came home and found out your child had taken an aspirin for a headache.
With all of that said, I have to explore your question of too much from the angle of a vision quest or a sweat lodge. I have had many moments in both ceremonies where song and focus was the only thing that enabled me to complete the ceremony. Focus and will are important no matter what type of ceremony you are in and even more so with larger amounts of pejuta. The bottom line is, you do not want to push the envelope too much and find out you can't actually lift 300 lbs as your lowering it down without a spotter for the first time. Now, if you've routinely lifted 295 lbs for two reps then it may be safe to try for a third rep with a spotter, but you wouldn't go for 300 lbs without a spotter after having done three reps just barely. So, even though it is just a  five pound increase... you have safeties in place. With that said, why would anyone want to push the limits of medicine to such an extreme? This is not a race nor a challenge. That type of mentality has no place taking pejuta in the first place. Pejuta is potent medicine. This is why I state, it is best to have just one large button the first time. Slow and gradual. If after several hours you feel that is not enough. One more button can be taken. Again, wait another hour or two. But, please do not make the mistake of thinking that because you had 16 buttons of a certain size spaced out evenly over the night that you can simply take 7 buttons the next time without any wait of the same size. Medicine does not work like that. You may drink 3 glasses of wine over the course of a night, but you wouldn't necessarily guzzle 3 glasses of wine down straight simply because you remembered that you one had 3 glasses of wine in a single night. Common sense should come into play at some point, but you can't have common sense if you don't relate these things to what you do know about the life you do know and this may be something you know nothing about. Mind you, I'm not advocating you do anything that is not legal where you are at or out of a context that would be illegal. I am simply advocating that if you attend a ceremony such as this... it would be best to gauge your partaking of that sacred sacrament on the guidance of those who have been there before. In some circles you hear of having a sitter present who has been through the experience you are about to go through. This is the same as having a medicine man, spiritual leader, or even an experienced weight lifter or painter help you progress in technique. Sure you may have some innate muscular strength or innate artistic ability, but only someone insane would think that they can paint Starry Night the first time they pick up a paint brush or lift 300 lbs the first time they get under an Olympic bar. If you grow up in an artistic culture or family then perhaps you can paint better than the rest if those members are also painters. However, switch the art form to modeling and suddenly your skills may not be up to  par even though you may have a natural bent or learned ability to see detail that others may not pick up on. What I'm trying to say here is that all abilities, experiences, etc. do not always carry over into another activity in the way we might like them to or think they should. This is again, why I stress taking it slow. It is far better to be pleasantly surprised that you can lift 200 lbs after first trying 100 lbs, 135 lbs, etc. with a spotter and making gradual improvements than it is to get crushed without any help under 300 lbs. But again, I have to ask... why would someone want to lift such a heavy weight the first time around? What would make them think that was safe? What would make them think to try that without a trusted friend who could spot them and lift the weight off their chest should it come crashing down? 300 lbs will come crashing down on a fellow who can't lift 135 lbs. A single spotter may not be enough for such a crazy attempt as it may be more than the  spotter can safely handle as well. Enough with my rambling on this....

i figured it was in a place as you described.  that's the only way i would see it as safe.  a bunch of white kids in a busy city though - forget it.  and i would freak out a lot worse if a kid told me they took some aspirin!  or any pharmaceutical drug for that matter.  they save a lot of people but they kill a lot of people too.  sometimes i wonder who's in the lead saved or killed?  i believe it wasn't worth freaking out about either.  i would be far more worried about kids going to a party in the city than kids who have already eaten peyote in the dessert surrounded by their family and friends.  but still a good idea to clarify. 

i would suggest that if one must immerse themselves in any entheogenic experience they either do so very cautiously or not at all.  this has less to do with how i personally feel about these substances and more to do with my inability to get inside the psyche of another person.  i exercise some control over my mind, albeit probably less than i currently realize.  i cannot make that claim about the thousands of moronic and misguided incarnations i've seen and read about who commit acts of horrible violence.  the people i've heard preaching complete nonsense and their entire cheering crowds.   i can't speak for these people because they are definitely reacting differently to what i thought was a pretty similar environment.  now in saying that,  i personally think one could successfully argue that all of the 'negative' that has come during the 5000+ years of peyote use is far outweighed by the negativity caused by any one of the opioids, cox-2 inhibitors, or antipsychotics/antidepressants used in the last quarter century.  personally, i used to lift a lot of heavy weights and now my back hurts sometimes.  both metaphorically and literally.   

You hit the nail on the head when you said your back hurts from lifting heavy weights. There are definite prices that can be paid by pushing ones body to the limits or ones mind for that matter. Take it slow, steady, and be patient is always my motto... albeit sometimes I have trouble with those things, I try to learn from my mistakes and definitely acknowledge where it is wiser to err on the side of caution. Glad I hit home with you on that one.

I'm adding this medicine log a little lower down as if you've made it through this far, you've read enough to understand that these medicines are not something to be taken lightly or in the wrong settings. While many do not believe in mixing sacraments there are some and has always been a mixing of traditions. What I am writing here is a method I've only dreamed about, so take it with a note of caution. The medicines I'm describing come form a myriad of sources and when combined can have a synergistic effect so if one actually dreams of preparing this sacrament where legal please understand that this is a very potent and pleasing mixture that should not be attempted lightly.
4 foot of Trichocereus with spines removed and cut into thin one inch stars. Allowed to dry fully.
4 buttons dried
1 amanita dried
1 Brugmansia flower dried
All of these specimens are allowed to boil at a low boil for several hours. Removed from pot and put into a separate pot and allowed to boil for several more hours at a low rumbling boil. The materials are then removed and squeezed out through a cheese cloth and both pots liquid content are combined and slowly reduced to 8 cups. This amount when dreamed about was appropriate for 4-8 people. Honey or brown sugar was added for taste, but need not be included. One cup was to be taken and then 4 hours was to elapse before deciding on need for second cup or even half cup as potency was deemed to vary as well as sensitivity of individuals. In this dream, each person had already experienced each medicine component in this mixture by itself. I.e. 1 foot of trichocereus had already been experienced by itself. One pejuta button was already tried by itself. One amanita had already been tried. And one Brugmansia flower  had already been tried. All of these medicines were already familiar to the participants in this dream ceremony with at least one week passing between each experience to allow the participants to gain familiarity with each medicine separately and each medicine was also taken with a sitter in a rural setting. Please understand, this was only a dream so I share it here cautiously. Additionally, each member had dreamed of taking this preparation with only the Trichocereus and pejuta previously. The addition of Amanita was added in next and done on another day. So, the actual preparatory phase of this would be 1 foot Trichocereus only per person. One button only per person different day. One amanita only different day different week and so on. Then, 1 foot Trichoccereus dreamed of with one button. 1 foot Trichocereus + 1 button different week. 1 foot Trichocereus + 1 button + 1 amanita different week. In the dream, if these precautions were not taken to slowly get to know how each medicine worked by itself and then in conjunction with the other medicines then the spirits of the medicine may not be kind to the participants. Please understand, this is a dream I had. This particular mixture may vary depending on many variables in each medicine as well as those variables as to the sensitivity of the dreamers. However, what was noted was that the dry mouth normally associated with Brugmansia was offset with the Amanita and this was pleasing as the two seemed to go hand in hand with each other. Again, this was all a dream so please take this last preparation with a grain of salt and some deep contemplation before one attempts to have a similar dream as even dreaming of this dream could prove to be too potent for many to experience. The whole preparation process seemed to take too long for most to consider it at any rate which is a positive in that I see this dream as being potentially too strong for many given how strong these medicines can be on their own. Nausea could be a factor in real life if attempting this combination of medicines outside of the dream world.

that sounds like one way to ruin a saturday to me.  i personally am not interested in even contemplating the ingestion of datura/brugmansia.  i worry that in this particular mixture the effects of the brugmansia would far outlast those of the others making for a scary, confusing experience.  although i can see how a small dose of scopolamine might lessen the nausea, i think its uses should be limited to drying up death rattles and rape and robbery overseas.  (kidding)  i am, however, fascinated by accounts of people who have taken it...  i am reminded of a story from a guy i know.  back in high school he and some friends ate a bunch of datura seed pods thinking they were going to get high...  my friend was lucky.  after an hour and a half, thinking nothing was going to happen, he went home.  at least his mom was there for damage control so he was alright...eventually.  but he explained that the experience was quite unpleasant.  the rest of them ended up in the hospital for different reasons.  i think one or two were in a car accident and the others were found behaving strangely in different parts of town and were arrested.  he said it made the paper.  none of them enjoyed the experience.  it sounded more like a delirium.

i used to overwinter this datura plant in a room in my house.  sometimes i would go into that room to work and do different things.  you may say I'm crazy but i swear i could feel effects of the plant just by hanging out beside it too long... i ended up throwing the plant out for that reason.  i did treat it for mites that winter so maybe i was just touching the leaves too much.  either way it freaked me out. 

You hit the nail on the head again. Too much Brugmansia, Datura, Nightshade, etc. can indeed act to create a very unpleasant experience. These types of plants are not to be taken lightly. With that said, too much Trichocereus can provide you with an unpleasant experience as well. This is very important to understand. When you begin to think that more must be better you are treading on dangerous ground with any of these sacraments. To be honest, I was hesitant of posting that dream as I know there will always be people that think they can adjust the mixtures and make their insights somehow better or more meaningful. The truth of the matter is that these sacraments help to open oneself up to what is already inside and around you. You don't need these sacraments to do that however. The vision quest or even quite contemplation work just fine for that. There are many tools that can be used and each person has their own list of what works best for them. When you fool around with something you don't know anything about and try to adjust the admixtures without understanding them then you are asking for trouble. I've had many years of using many traditional medicines in settings with traditional medicine people from many cultures and some medicines I only dream about on these forums as they are not a part of any indigenous culture in the way they are prepared in these dreams. Any medicine abused in the wrong setting, with the wrong attitude, and without proper guidance and slowly getting to know that medicine over time can wreck havoc on ones psyche to say the very least. Now, factor in that potency can vary quite a bit between even one type of sacrament and sensitivity levels can also vary from something as simple as genetics or to the fact that one just took the same sacrament less than 24 hours ago. Your body and your mind need time to process these sacraments over time. It is similar to the tree exercise in that regard. You are building a slow connection over time with these different sacraments and only after you have gotten to know each one individually can you begin to know them together and as always... it should be a slow process. The bottom line, any one of these sacraments in and of themselves can take you completely out of this world so that this world does not exist. If you truly want that deep of an experience your better off dreaming of salvia which at least only lasts a fraction of the time. And with that said, with any sacrament... salvia included... there are dangers inherent in trying too much too soon. Proper time, proper setting, sitter/guide, and most importantly small adjustments until you find what works for you as there may be no going backwards.

wasn't trying to insinuate my idea was more meaningful or anything so i hope it didn't come across that way.  i find your posts incredibly insightful.  I'm just personally a bit scared of those plants...

i agree people need some time to pass between these experiences.  the vast majority of people would tap out pretty early from the regimen you suggest.  that's going pretty friggin' deep.

i certainly agree that guidance, set and setting and so on is vital for all medicines.  with a few exceptions including food if you consider it a medicine.  i read this article a while ago that explained that for every dollar spent on our 'trusted' medications, a dollar and thirty-three cents is spent dealing with medication related incidents, i.e. overdose, treating side effects, prescription errors, adverse effects etc...  i wonder what this statistic would look like for entheogenic plants?  for every 100 of these relatively cheap experiences how many people quit smoking or stopped using heroin?  how many people saw the world in a different light?  or saw themselves in a different light?  maybe they avoided a lifetime of costly antidepressants or avoided some mental illness altogether.  some people might relate better to nature and move away from their sedentary lifestyles leading to less costly cardiovascular maladies.  it might reduce stress in others which is correlated to all sorts of health problems.  it seems dollar to dollar, entheogenic drugs must be considerably more efficacious. considering almost no one is hurt by them unless using them without adequate supervision or insight, it seems then prohibition actually causes more harm than it intends to prevent.  sorry to rant but sometimes i get sad for humanity when my brian tries to extrapolate this problem. 

as for salvia what are your thoughts on the quid method?  i know you will never get to that universe dissolving state this way but as a meditation aid or stress reliever?   i am personally quite fond of this plant as i used it to successfully quit smoking after trying almost everything else.  i has read about ibogaine for herion and thought a similar concept might apply.  i prepared my mind by skimming over the youtube explanation of allen cars easy way to quit smoking and then used a salvia extract, legally obtained obtained of course.  three times in a row while concentrating on things like taking a breath fresh air, being free of an annoying habit and addiction and so on... i have not had the urge to have a cigarette since that experience.  the weirdest part was the anxiousness, anger and withdrawal symptoms that always prevented my from quitting before were hardly even noticeable.  i just wanted that breath of fresh and and the freedom from the addiction.   

also dosing must be difficult with trichocereus?  it seems there is such variation between plant potency and diameter it's pretty much a crapshoot.   

Again, you understand exactly what I am relating. There is a fear and a lack of understanding with these sacraments in the general public and an overt enthusiasm of others and everything in between. Those overly enthusiastic may think they understand when they do not understand or think they can handle more than they can and bite off more than they can chew as a very little deviation in mixtures or even with some sacraments by themselves can be the difference between a successful session where one is gently reminded of connections we have with nature and insights into our own self or thinking one is entirely and completely gone... a total dissolving of one's self and one's reality. Albeit, some entheogens have less leeway for error than others. If you attempt to experience any of these sacraments and there is fear inside you then you are more apt to have a bad experience and you have already made a potentially bad situation worse if you have not been slow in your approach to these medicines and slowly garnered their trust. This goes back to the tree exercise I explained earlier... You build connections with medicines slowly and over time. This is why a guide is preferable to having none as it  can help speed up the process as you are building on the connections of another while you are making connections with that guide. Again, you hit the nail on the head here when you mention adequate supervision and insight. Time, supervision, and insight are all relative and differ from person to person. In the end, if you don't slowly approach these plants erring on the side of caution and slowly getting to know these plants you may find that you are disappointed and try to ramp up you experience too fast. This is where the insight or guidance of another comes into play. If you don't 100% trust that guide and you go into that experience with fear then you are playing with fire. It is far better to have a single Amanita for instance and prepare this mixed with a liter of water. Drinking one cup the first week, one and a half cups the next... if you are fearful of that sacrament. The point is that you are not trying to gain significant insights during this time, but rather building a relationship with this sacrament over time. You have to understand, I have been vision questing, sundancing, etc. since I was 16 years of age and participating in many other ceremonies and the like before that. This does not mean you should trust me as I cannot be your guide in a real meaningful sense with these medicines as you should have a guide that is there with you in person for these types of experiences if your seeking any deep breakthroughs and have not taken a long time to get to know these sacraments without any thought of making a breakthrough. The goal should not be to vision at first, but rather to understand and get to know the sacrament you are working with over time. Time is relative and we each need a different amount of time to make those connections that are needed to understand a medicine. If the appropriate amount of time is taken prior to making a breakthrough experience then you will have much more insight gained than you would from simply partaking of a "correct amount" the first time. The real dangers here are taking any sacrament when you have any internal fear, lack respect for the power of these sacraments, and lack a real understanding of what you are doing and how these medicines interact with you. Without a guide, more time should be taken than normal... much more time... getting to know these sacraments. The better the guide the less time that needs to be taken. I think you make some very valid points and you say them in a way that I have a hard time with as I fully respect these sacraments and have taken many years to get to know them in both the waking world and the dream world so to speak. With that said, I do not make adjustments to my sacramental  methods, quantities, admixtures, settings, etc. lightly unless it is to reduce the amount that I am dreaming of. When you experience a tree, say a pine, you may notice at first that a pine may seem somehow warmer or inviting than another tree nearby. Over time, if you build a relationship or connection with that tree by meditating, relaxing, talking, etc. to that tree you are building a relationship between yourself and that tree. That tree is getting to know you just as you are getting to know that tree. There is a bond that is formed there. The better you are at forming those bonds, the closer you feel, the less you are pushed away and the more you are invited to understand about yourself as well as that tree. That is the way I see it, but that is not the only way to see it. We all have different ways of perceiving an event, site, sight, smell, etc. How we react to that event, site, etc. is directly related to how we perceive that event and to the connections, thought processes, emotions, etc. that go into it. The stronger the connections are in a positive manner the more positive the experience will be so long as one remembers to always respect the power inherent in a situation, sacrament, etc. The worst danger of all is when you have gotten to know these sacraments slowly and think that your connection will save you from what you know to be a leap beyond what you have ever experienced. I won't tell you to trust me. I would rather tell you to listen to your instinct and get to know whatever sacrament you are drawn to in as slow a manner as you need and to have a guide present. When you talk of the universe dissolving you are already talking about similar experiences as can be had with any of these other sacraments by themselves. The fact that you understand that a quid can be a better way to experience this medicine for yourself is already showing deep insight into the fact that the medicine just facilitates what is already inside you. The medicine should be a friendly guide and not approached too abruptly or demandingly. With that said, the medicine may always choose to show you more than you think you can handle, but the medicine will never give you more than you can handle if it is approached with respect in the proper setting with a proper guide. If you let your ego tell you that you need to bench 300 lbs with these sacraments after only lifting the bar however... The old adage more is not always better comes into play. You have to interact with these sacraments and tools or they are devoid of meaning and rife with danger. Thank you for making these points more salient in this discussion.

i've got to say, the little bit of your history i know is quite fascinating.  not to mention it's interpretations.  i feel like there should be a documentary covering your experiences.  it seems others have experiences that are far different from your own yet interestingly reach similar conclusions about the nature of entheogenic plants and of themselves.  it seems the plants themselves have some inherent guiding quality.  in the culture to which i was submerged, the first entheogenic experiences came in fungal form and showed up at high school dances.  there were no guides.  there was a guidance counsellor, but she was as confused as us.  so now you're got this barely plotted teenage brain staring at it's own eyeballs in a bathroom mirror totally confused as to how two separate incarnations could simultaneously have different thoughts after both experiencing the exact same thing?!  these immature minds were baffled... this concept of two separate consciousnesses....  how could it be real...?  how could it be possible...?

some years after quitting smoking after the single session of diviners sage i had begun to gain a tremendous respect for this particular sacrament.  i believe the public opinion of this plant is all wrong.  it has powerful medicinal qualities.  i don't think you necessarily need to super condense it and take a huge dose - but you shouldn't do that with cough syrup either.  i had witnessed the universe dissolving effects of the strong extracts but had never used the plant as the mazatecs did.  already having some respect for this plant my first quid was only two leaves, while meditating as to be hypersensitive to the potentially subtle changes.  every few weeks another couple of leaves were added until i first felt what i can describe as a complete separation of the single point of consciousness and the constructed physical reality that plagues that single point of consciousness.  -it was a clear summer night, i spat out the quid and sat back to continue meditating.  after few minutes my consciousness literally sat forward out of my own body leaving behind all the experiences, ideas, fears, emotions...etc back on the lawn chair...  and i momentarily existed as a single conscious entity outside of my own mind.    from that point forward mindfulness had new meaning.  i felt like i could now physically sit behind my own mind during meditation.  consequently, i could much more easily identify unfruitful thought patterns to better deal with stress, anger and so on. 

your point about entheogens facilitating an internal process really resonates with me.  i think these sacraments just show us what's already there - just from a different angle.  allowing us to get a momentary glimpse of a more complete picture.  we can then draw from these experiences in seemingly infinite ways. 

i walked down to the river a few days ago and stood by a spot i like...  there is a fallen log where i sometimes sit and two symmetrical trees framing an unfrozen section of river.  there were two groups of geese gathered on either side of a single swan.  we were all listening to the flowing water.  i stood still and began to watch my breathing and considered what it must be like to stand outside for 4 days and nights.  the geese looked uninterested.  but the swan locked eyes with me.  it was one of the most psychedelic experiences i've had.  that subtle high you get from deep breathing, the sound of the water, the corkscrewing shape of the two trees framing this beautiful connection between this animal out of it's element and this human sharing a similar experience.  neither one understanding the other.  both just breathing, existing and sharing an awareness of one another.   

yesterday i went back in search of a similar experience.  this time i found footprints heading across the river onto a small island and then to the other side.  knowing the ice was not frozen a few day prior i was a bit apprehensive.  as i continued across the snow became more shallow and the footprints revealed themselves to be hoof prints leaving me feeling somewhat less secure...  i made it across to the island and then ventured further onto the other side.  when i turned around i saw my usual walking path from a drastically different angle.  it was so intensely beautiful.  all the bare trees.  i stood there for quite a while soaking it in.  there was the spot i stood by watching the swan.  there was the log.  it was just the beginning of this incredible panorama. 

to me this is what these entheogens seems to offer.  they facilitate the crossing the metaphorical river.   

I have to confess my experiences are not that different from many, but I understand how you would feel that they are. As for different experiences and reaching the same conclusions about these sacraments and themselves... I think that is par for the course as well as like it or not, these sacraments are affecting your consciousness in ways that are not fathomable for many who have not traversed their depths and attempted to get to know themselves or their sacraments. You bring up a point about having no guide that is a valid one. It is simply a matter of perspective. You see, when I write I tend to write to an audience that I feel has an element in it that is simply thrill seeking at one level. I tailor much of what I write to that audience as I do not want any of that particular crowd doing anything dangerous. I write as I know that without reading your words as well as mine that these sacraments may be taken too lightly.  To that end, you give a good balance to my words. You are rephrase things into your own understandings, misgivings, fears, uncertainties, and wonder and that provides another well needed insight.
As regards you not having a guide that first time... I would have to disagree. You always have a guide when you imbibe a sacrament. You may not listen to that guide and it may be too late for you to hear that guidance, but the sacraments that we use will always be a teacher or guide to those who respect them and even to those that don't.... This reminds me of a vision quest I once heard about where a man went up on a vision quest seeking great medicine. He wanted to be powerful and have a powerful vision. He made his prayer ties requesting great strength. He prepared in this way for a year and when he went up with his intentions fully set on acquiring this great strength he was challenged by a large stone bolder that came tumbling after him trying to kill him the man thought. The boulder destroyed all in its path save the man who took off running from his altar. This is something you are never supposed to do as that is the one place you are taught that you are absolutely safe while vision questing. The bottom line to this story is that on a vision quest you never face a fear bigger than what you can handle. The mind set you go into that vision with however makes the difference between making it or not making it. To be honest, this man had a great and powerful vision just as he requested and he was appropriately challenged just as he requested. His prayers were heard and answered. He simply failed to listen to his vision. Had he stayed and faced his fears, there is no telling what grandfather would have told him. Perhaps he would even have acquired stone medicine which is regarded as one of the strongest medicines there is. This is one of the medicines of the yuwipi medicine men. This is what I fear when I hear of people taking sacraments without respect. Any sacrament whether it be pejuta, cimora, amanita, etc. can give you more than you wanted or worse... give you exactly what you wanted, but perhaps are not in the right state of mind to receive at the moment. There is a difference to being able to handle something and being ready to handle that something at that moment.
For those that would take the time to properly get to know a sacrament then that medicine can effectively become ones teacher or guide. For those lucky enough to experiment with a medicine without respect and still fortunate enough to receive some guidance... that is what I look at it as... fortunate. Perhaps they listened to some words of wisdom they heard from a friend of a friend... whatever the reason... they listened to something call it reason, common sense, a gut feeling, or what have you.... They are the lucky ones as I see it as in to many of today's world there is an urgency to experience something new or get their fast without preparing properly. We want our meals fast, our service fast.... And.....
So, yes, you can have a sacrament as your guide if you can quite your own mind and have patience enough to listen to what the medicine has to teach and not rush things. This is why I mentioned getting to know the tree. The days entailed... You can apply the same thing to other medicine people, sacraments, etc. as it is all about forming connections, understandings, etc. over time. Being consistent and sticking with what you have promised you would do. When you make a promise to the spirit or to yourself... that is the one promise you should try to keep. Do not offer more than you can bite off, but offer something substantial and the rewards will be just as substantial if not significantly more so. I understand how these tools work and that allows me to adjust them and understand what I am getting myself into. I do not take these tools and try to adjust them past my point of understanding as that would prove fruitless at best and deadly at worst.
There is a difference in having a medicine and being affected by a medicine. Someone with Eagle medicine for instance may be able to heal you with their medicine. The same can be said of some medicine person with any medicine. Their healing abilities and methods simply differ. You are typically simply being affected or healed by a medicine that you take as a sacrament in a ceremonial setting. You do not truly have that medicine. That medicine has not become a part of you. With the tree exercise I gave you... you are actually becoming a part of that tree or that spot of land and it you. That is the difference and that exercise can be applied to any medicine person, sacrament, land, ocean, etc. But again, there is a difference between acquiring a medicine as a helper and acquiring that medicine as a medicine. As a helper, you are looking at having a single bear, eagle, stone, etc. medicine helper. When you look at it in its entirety as you have acquired that medicine then you have acquired the spirit of that medicine in its totality and in the same token it has acquired you. The two of you have become as one. So, there are different levels of understanding or being. This is why some medicine people speak of eating an entire plant... roots, stems, leaves, flowers, and all. Being careful not to break even a single root lest the spirit escape through the root piece that was broken off. They are speaking of acquiring a single medicine helper... not a medicine necessarily in its entirety. Now, simply eating a plant in and of itself will do almost nothing to help you acquire it as your helper. It is the intent that matters most of all and how you approach it.
The way you approached diviners sage is a right way of approaching a sacrament. It is not the only way, but it is a very good right way. You could do the same with most sacraments whether they be Amanita, Trichocereus, or Lophophora and your breakthrough would be just as profound as you gave it the proper respect and time to get to know and understand it and allowed the sacrament to slowly teach you instead of barging into the class demanding to be let in on an advanced anatomy class having never learned basic anatomy or any science for that matter.
The experience you relate by the river tells me you already know how to begin to tap into nature in a deep and profound way. All that is left to do is to acquire a mindset to do more of the same and make a promise to yourself that will help solidify that bond in a more meaningful manner. The promise itself does not matter as to its content so much as the fact that a promise that can be kept is made. The promise should not be so hard that there is a high likelihood of you failing it, but the promise should not be so easy that it has no weight. This is a promise to yourself and for yourself as much as it is to a medicine, tree, swan, etc. The point is that this promise will change you and in doing so how you relate to the world and how the world relates to you. It is the same that is done when you wish to befriend someone consciously or unconsciously. You are attracted to some part of that person and that person in turn is attracted to some part of you. Promises are made to meet again, to do this or that... and something stronger than an acquaintance develops...into a true friendship. That is the tool that I have been explaining broken down into its compartments and held out raw so as to reveal it in its completeness and without so much mystery and kept simple enough that I won't ramble on too long about how it works anymore lest I completely bore you with the mechanics of it all. Suffice it to say that it all goes back to the medicine wheel or iktomi's web... whichever symbolism you prefer.

I've laid out the tools as bare as I know how to lay them out so you can use them or not as you see fit. From what I can tell of you from your righting, this should enable you to modify this tool to fit yourself if you should chose to use it in part or in whole... as I see elements of it that you are doing already. The very bottom line is these are all just tools that enable us to get to know ourselves and the world better and to grow in harmony with ourselves and the world as a whole... one piece at a time. None of these tools are needed to do that, but they do work well and that is the big draw for many that begin to understand them.

well, i've got to say thanks!  you have significantly broadened my understanding of your culture and likely to some degree changed some trajectories... i'm going to read up on the types of medicines you mentioned.  i think i have used stone medicine before.  i will use these techniques and reference these posts.  ...i can't stop thinking about experiencing that 4 day vision quest... something to work up to maybe. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W64ymSwYW2w

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers."
                     -kayne west

I like that... Kanye. I was once told that animals acquire the medicine of the plants they eat and the other animals they eat as they don't have negative emotions like Homo sapiens. With us, we can be exposed to a medicine repeatedly and never acquire it due to these negative emotions. All negative emotions have their root in fear. Backtracking, this is why it takes multiple exposures over a long period of time for Homo sapiens to develop a feeling for a medicine... gradually taking it into our being so to speak over a longer period of time. Again, I always think of this along the lines of a spider web or a medicine wheel. The more you come in contact with a particular string on a web, lets call it stone medicine, the more that line or pieces of it adhere to you. Eventually, you have a portion of you that resonates completely with that medicine that you are able to tap into at any time.

i was once told that whenever i get angry i should try to think of what i'm afraid of.  what a great piece of advice.  saved me a lot of time. 

Again, I'm speaking to the choir it seems. Its almost uncanny how so many cultures see things so similarly sometimes and yet phrase it differently ... but the meaning is much the same.

only the cool cultures... 8)  but really though, there are still some cultures that cut heads off for witchcraft.  i strongly question their capacity for introspection...  but of course without uncool, cool does not exist.  seems all i can do is appreciate the contrast.   

Sorry, I can't let you attribute that sentiment to Kanye. It's a Buddhist saying originally formulated by Qingyuan Weixin, later translated by D.T. Suzuki in his Essays in Zen Buddhism.

my bad. was he in the wu tang clan?  either way the statement describes this continuum of perceptual change we're all on, knowingly or otherwise, so I figured it could help sum up the conversation. 

If it is written then it is so

i was once told that whenever i get angry i should try to think of what i'm afraid of.  what a great piece of advice.  saved me a lot of time.


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