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Author Topic: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?  (Read 1369 times)

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Offline Inyan

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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 04:19:46 PM »
what is heaven sir?  is it not an image? 

Offline Inyan

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2017, 04:52:05 PM »
what is heaven sir?  is it not an image?

Is Heaven an image to you? I would say that if that is so then it is so then it is.
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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2017, 06:06:04 PM »
not figuratively inyan, but actually.  certainly heaven exists, fundamentally, as an idea.  surely we can agree on that much.  and sure, perhaps there is a real place somewhere in space and time that could match with your image or my image.  certainly there could be this place heaven.  but for now, it is only an image, an idea, a belief.  if i have an image of heaven and you have an image of heaven we are conflicted ideologically.  but if we see that heaven exists, fundamentally, as an image, we find heaven actually.  that is, we find communion.  truth.  intelligence.  fact.  harmony and the rest of it.  put differently, if we see that heaven exists as an idea, and that when one identifies with an idea about heaven they are limited to perceive, think, act, through that veil of opinion.  but when one is free from identification with ideas, they are free to find actuality.  they are free to see that heaven exists only as an image.  and it might exist too. 

is that not it sir?     


Offline Inyan

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 10:56:10 PM »
what is heaven sir?  is it not an image?

Here you are asking me to define heaven for you. I can’t define heaven for you nor can anyone else. You are asking me if heaven is an image… something to be seen. While I agree that perhaps you can see heaven, I would argue that even a blind man could perceive heaven.

not figuratively inyan, but actually.  certainly heaven exists, fundamentally, as an idea.  surely we can agree on that much.  and sure, perhaps there is a real place somewhere in space and time that could match with your image or my image.  certainly there could be this place heaven.  but for now, it is only an image, an idea, a belief.  if i have an image of heaven and you have an image of heaven we are conflicted ideologically.  but if we see that heaven exists, fundamentally, as an image, we find heaven actually.  that is, we find communion.  truth.  intelligence.  fact.  harmony and the rest of it.  put differently, if we see that heaven exists as an idea, and that when one identifies with an idea about heaven they are limited to perceive, think, act, through that veil of opinion.  but when one is free from identification with ideas, they are free to find actuality.  they are free to see that heaven exists only as an image.  and it might exist too. 

You assert that heaven exists as an idea.
On that point I would say that for me it exists more as a feeling than an idea or a thought. However, back to your idea of heaven as an image. For me heaven also exists as a drop of water or a breath of air. However, we do not always feel that heaven that is always there. Why is that? I would contend that it is our thoughts of what it should be and who should be able to experience it that often limits us or keeps us from perceiving heaven.  If heaven exists as an idea I have not touched it. If heaven exists as a feeling I have been wrapped up in it. If heaven exists in that which can be seen and felt then I have walked in it. In that sense, heaven is something that exists within all of us and is at the same time outside of all of us.

We may be conflicted ideologically on what heaven is and that is fine.  Your heaven can be whatever you need it to be as can mine. There is no need to impose your beliefs on me or the other way around for both of us to experience that which is the same and if not the same then who is to know? Who is to judge?
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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 06:01:07 AM »
yes that's it!  indeed!  a blind man too can hold, in his mind, a picture of heaven!  an image!  that's it!  we are reaching communion on this matter sir! 

now the fact that heaven can indeed exist as an image does not take away from your image or mine or anyone else's.  so please sir, don't assume that the good speaker is challenging your beliefs.  i am not.  the speaker is not suggesting that heaven is or isn't real.  the speaker is not challenging your beliefs.  no, no.  that is another matter altogether.  that is a matter to be left for the religious leaders and the politicians, but the speaker will tell no man what he should or shouldn't believe.  that is authority, and authority destroys reality.  so we cannot find communion in this way.  we cannot find communion forcing an ideology.  we must arrive there together.     

but that does not limit us from discussing belief abstractly.  that is, belief, not in the context of the yours or the mine, just belief as an integral mechanism.  belief, as it relates to things.  that is what i wish to discuss with you sir.  i am not questioning your beliefs, not imposing mine.  just discussing belief, the abstract concept. 

now i would like to discuss belief as the abstract concept as a means of leading us to communion, to agreement.  but to find agreement, there cannot be the yours or mind ideologically.  there can only be the facts we share.  if we move together along a subject by skipping along the facts, and not our personal opinions, then we can find the integral mechanism of things.  but if we hold tightly to our own images, then we cannot communicate fact, we can only defend an image. 

now, you did touch on this earlier, but we were sidetracked; i think there is an important distinction to make between feeling and thought?  inyan, what divides feeling from thought?  if we can make this distinction i think we can find communion on this matter.  feeling and thought inyan, what divides them?  are they one?  or are they divided? 

Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 10:44:42 AM »
inyan, it seems to the speaker that feeling is a subcategory of thought.  we like to pretend it is separate i think, but the experience of an emotion is threaded from the same fibres as a thought.  that is, they both etch themselves into the canvas of awareness.  so feelings are an element of thought just as is perception and action.  they all occur within the field of awareness.  thought. 

now, not all feeling are easily articulated, but all feelings, when understood can certainly be described.  when there is happiness, you can often trace it back to some acquisition, whether of virtue or property - but the happiness is always the fruit of an idea.  as in the case of sadness.  that is, when there is sadness, it too can be articulated, described.  there is loss etc.  again, sadness is the fruit of an idea.  same with anger, frustration, jealously, and so on.  they all are threaded in idea. 

now the formation of idea and response is mechanical and relative.  that is, first, there is the image of what should be.  then, there is the unfolding of 'what is'.  then there is response, anger, frustration, happiness and the rest of it.  so we see that feeling is idea relative to reality, it is preconception relative to 'what is'.  if we become aware of what these feelings are, we become free of their impetus. 

to be free of impetus is to find heaven sir.  that is, heaven, as an idea, creates conflict/impetus.  but when i become aware of this whole thing, that idea begets impetus, then i shift my point of reference to the third party perceiver.  and so i am free of it.  i am free to think, act, perceive, feel, outside of its restriction. 

if you and the speaker meet one another with preconceived ideas of what is true, if we identify with these preconceptions, we cannot communally find truth.  but if we see that we are limited by our ideas, then we can find truth together, then we can find heaven communally.  but if we instead look to define a particular heaven, if we create a whole ideology around it, if we worship the idea, then we beget conflict with he who worships a conflicting idea. 

now if one discerns that they are indeed limited by their ideas, that they are confined to think within the realm of what they believe, and then they take peyote, or another psychedelic drug, and consider deeply the significance of this, there comes a fundamental change, not a change that is the fruit of an idea, but a change that is the fruit of negation.  then we, you, the speaker, and the rest of them, can find communion.  not a commune, but communion.  truth.  fact.  nature.  is this not it sir? 

Offline Inyan

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 02:16:20 PM »
Feeling is a thought like a foot is a hand.
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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 02:40:25 PM »
we don't have to call it a thought if you don't like inyan.  words come with their own images, and if we find ours misalign we can look instead to the meaning and not so much the terms.

thought, to me, is not thought to you.  that is, you see thought, ideas, relative to, say, feeling, and when you consider feeling, you consider it relative to another element of thought, like ideas.  otherwise, you could not differentiate the two.  to the speaker, feeling and thought are one, in that, they are two components of the same underlying physiological capacity.  i call this capacity 'thought.'  and to me, it includes also action, emotion, perception as these things all mechanically interrelate to produce the machinery of consciousness.  so when you are looking at thought - ideas, you are looking at it relative to feeling, or another one of (what i would call) thought's components, otherwise you cannot look at it.  i hope this makes sense how i have put it. to be, is to be related. 

now, to the speaker, thought has multiple components, the conscious exploratory awareness, memory, the compulsive impetus is ideals, beliefs, tradition, physiology, patterns, and then there is physical sensation.  and through the mechanical interrelation of these things there is consciousness.  so when i say thought, i use it as an umbrella term for this underlying physiological capacity.  but perhaps should i have termed it differently?  sir, what should we call this underlying physiological capacity?     
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 02:46:50 PM by Seaside Chief »

Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: What if we could have heaven on Earth? Wouldn't that be worth a try?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 08:15:53 AM »
good sir, may we go in to it further?  may we discuss the mechanics of thought as it pertains to establishing the neurological framework for objectivity.  to the speaker, this is of great cultural significance.  and there is good reason the speaker is looking to discuss this matter with you...  when you are ready sir.