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Author Topic: The Peyote Way Church Of God  (Read 8630 times)

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Offline HorribleHippie

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The Peyote Way Church Of God
« on: January 15, 2015, 07:51:18 AM »
What are the thoughts on this? I think it is great that they allow any race to join, no one should be discriminated for race; for Anything, in my opinion.

....Quoted from their site: "The Peyote Way Church of God is a non-sectarian, multicultural, experiential, Peyotist organization located in southeastern Arizona, in the remote Aravaipa wilderness. It is not affiliated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Native American Church, or any other religious organizations, though we do accept people from all faiths. Church membership is open to all races. We encourage individuals to create their own rituals as they become acquainted with the great mystery. We believe that the Holy Sacrament Peyote, when taken according to our sacramental procedure and combined with a holistic lifestyle (see Word of Wisdom), can lead an individual toward a more spiritual life.

Peyote is currently listed as a controlled substance and its religious use is protected by Federal law only for Native American members of the Native American Church. Non-Indian Peyote use is protected in five states : AZ, NM, CO, NV, and OR. We do not have access to Peyote where it grows in South Texas and Mexico. As it is an endangered species, we believe an essential and inseparable part of our religious practice is the growing and stewardship of the Holy Sacrament Peyote."
If I go insane let it be said: I once was sane before I was dead.

Offline HorribleHippie

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 08:00:13 AM »
"Federal law prohibits possession of Peyote except to those who are members of the Native American Church (NAC) and can prove 25% Native American ancestry. However, the "bonafide religious use" of Peyote is exempted, regardless of race in Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada and Oregon (by Supreme Court Judicial Consent—see Smith vs. Employment Division 1991). The American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1996 protects members of the Native American Church from harassment nationally, but not cultivation of Peyote, as the NAC currently has no doctrine concerning cultivation. The Peyote Way Church is protected in these five states because cultivation of Peyote is an Article of Faith as an essential and inseparable part of our religious practice."
If I go insane let it be said: I once was sane before I was dead.

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 12:27:29 AM »
i think we can all agree that no race or culture should face discrimination.  i personally believe societies could function with  interpretations of one simple law and that's never to infringe on the freedom of another person unless they infringe on the freedom of someone else.  simple.  if we all agreed to this there would be no restriction of sacramental plants, no black markets, no women being forced into prostitution, gay/lesbian people would have equal rights, prisons would close and wars would end.       

…but unfortunately that's not the world we live in.  since what, 50 years ago human beings are getting locked in cages for using plant medicines that have 1000+ years historical use.  and everyone just goes home and turns on their attention harvesting machines to get saturated with beer and pharmaceutical drug commercials monkey-seeing their way into alignment.  anyone who strays from this predetermined pathway is at the very least discriminated against.  i go as far as supporting that earnie tertelgte guy.  at least i can't out logic him.  at the very base level he is entitled to the same freedoms as all other living things.  i cannot argue with him there.  in this world freedom is given out in small doses.

under this same 'law' we could discuss religion.  everyone is entitled to their own freedom so long as they don't infringe on the freedom of another.  you can see how this applies to the recent charlie hebdo situation.  everyone must be entitled to their own freedoms but when someone starts shooting up the place we have to then address the situation as a community to protect the freedoms of all.  muslims must be free.  and cartoonists must be free.   

so i feel that persons of all ethnicities should be allowed to practice whatever religions they decide.  a white guy should be able to join the NAC just like a mormon should be allowed to become a scientologist.  who cares.  unless they are infringing on someones rights we don't have to address it as a community.  i'm pretty sure the NAC strongly supports this principle. 

speaking of which, i actually made up my own religion.  do you want to join?  it's 40 bucks a month. 

Offline HorribleHippie

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 05:56:41 PM »
That's very interesting, your 'law'. I like it. I've come up with a similar universal creed that would be of great benefit if it were adopted fully: "Strive to be comfortable without infringing upon the comfort of others." I think that most anything can be boiled down to comfort. We all want to be comfortable; but one is doing wrong to seek comfort at the expense of another's. I'd be interested to check out your religion(if you're serious about that), but not interested in joining, really. $40 per month is a bit steep for me. I'd like to look into it, though.   :)
If I go insane let it be said: I once was sane before I was dead.

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 01:10:11 AM »
yeah it's pretty complicated that's why it's so expensive.  but you do get eternal life if you follow all the rules… nah really though, you can join for free.  here are the basics: just like most people i choose to believe different pieces from different sources that in the end bring me comfort.  (thanks for the concept)  basically my 'religion' believes that everything is made up of a base energy source that has yet to be clearly defined or understood.  i come from that energy source as it makes up every atom in this incredibly complicated meat machine i drive around.  when i die i will return to this source and my atoms will again swirl throughout the cosmos for an infinite amount of time as they did before my birth.  should these exact atoms come back together in the exact order and they were the day i was born, kablam, i exist again, and again and again.  throughout the multiverse.  for an infinite amount of time.  how then do i define consciousness,  well "i" is a consequence of the organization of this meat machine's molecules.  "i" was gradually carved by natural selection.  "i" have been shaped by my cumulative experience.  "i" am literally a device that helps to ensure the passage of genetic material.  i however certainly do not experience myself this way.  my experience is that of a human.  so in a sense "i" never exists and always exists at the same time.  i never exist the way the experience portrays myself to be and i always exist when my atoms are exactly as the are right now, which is always happening infinitely as we exist in infinite space and time.  would you donate 40 bucks? 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 01:17:42 AM by Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps »

Offline Inyan

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 11:05:13 PM »
I've read about them, never attended one of their ceremonies. I can offer up my own personal opinion and that is you must follow whatever path you feel is right for you. Beliefs and the right to believe something is not tied down to an ethnicity or we would not have caucasian Christians.

Another resource I can toss at you that accepts all ethnicities. https://nativeamericanchurches.org

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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2017, 07:36:42 AM »
Inyan, it seems there is another way to use peyote that does not involve any belief.  That is, when one adopts a belief, thought, action, and perception are corralled within its framework.  So one becomes limited by adopting beliefs.  In this sense, every belief is limiting, no matter whether directed inwardly or outwardly.  Peyote has the power to disengage these limitations.  To unrestrict thought, action, and percepton.  To find fact, free from the obfuscation of belief.  Put differently, when thought action and perception are not limited by belief, one is free to find actuality, which is objective fact, love, meditation, nature, God and the rest of it. 

to me, beliefs are concerning not only because they are limiting but also because they isolate the believer from the non believer.  No matter whether the belief is political, religious,  or nationalistic, the believer isolates himself, ideologically, when he adopts a belief. 

So what happens if we see the truth of this?  That beliefs isolate the self and limit thought.  What then?  Surely then one can look past belief to objective fact, to actuality, to love. 

We all are subject to the contraints of belief, the crippling limitations of opinion, and we are all able to recieve objective fact, that is, if we understand our natural limitations.  It matters not whether we chose to identify with the left or the right, unless we can look dispassionately at the left and the right, and see how they integrate with the whole, we have not found objective fact, we are still restricted ideologically, psychologically.

Now with all the war, with all the division and conflict in the world today, surely there is a deeper need for objective reasoning then there is for the freedom to believe.  But to infringe on another ideologically is authority, and authority is too belief, and so it too is limiting. so then, without infringing on ones ideological autonomy, how do the masses become aware of the limitations of belief?  How does the left meet the right in communion to solve problems objectively?  How do we find communal love sir? 

Offline Inyan

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 10:25:27 AM »
If one believes that one is limited by adopting beliefs then that could be looked at as yet another belief. Our thoughts are filled with beliefs and thus our thoughts are limiting. Actions are guided often guided by beliefs that they will have an effect. I may believe that I will fall off a cliff if I jump off the edge of the cliff. Another may believe they can fly if they take the leap of faith that they can indeed jump and fly. If we look at it as an objective reality that we can not fly then we will most certainly die and fall to the ground. However, even more interesting that that is that there have been actual cases of people dying simply because they had a belief that if they ate a certain bird they would die. I remember reading about this in a psychology class some years ago. The man had been tricked into eating a bird that was taboo to eat by a friend. A year later when the fellow deemed it was safe to tell his friend that he had cooked and served him this bird and no ill effects came of it the fellow was told. He promptly dropped dead. Beliefs like we are all connected or part of a larger whole may be true. We are all family in not only a distant biological sense, but In the sense that we are all made up of the same atoms and these atoms will be shared with our future generations and thus… we are all connected. When does a belief cross over from being belief to being reality?
If we believe that thoughts/beliefs can isolate us… what is to keep us from believing that they can also draw us into a larger whole? Do we need to be connected to something outside of ourselves to not feel isolated?

You ask if there is a deeper need for objective reasoning then there is for the freedom to believe.  I would say that once you have lost the freedom to believe as you would like then you have lost the ability to be objective in your reasoning. If you can not entertain another belief and try to see if there is any truth to it or put yourself in another’s shoes so to speak for a moment then you have lost the ability to use your imagination and in so doing any hypothesis one might come up with one would think would be extremely limited in at least some cases as you would have lost the freedom to believe or express that belief and that in itself would be very limiting.

For me, love is something you cannot truly have without being able to love oneself.  Do we pretend to love others when we are self loathing? How can we unconditionally love another if we are not unconditionally loving ourselves?

Many might have you faking it with actions till your thoughts and feelings fall in line. The desire to want to fit in and to understand might make one follow this route.

One might believe that peyote has power to change another or to influence ones being in a positive direction and that would be on par with many different people and their belief systems I’ve run across. Power can be used for good or bad by those that know how to wield power effectively.

I like where your thoughts go sometimes. Let me relate this part of a vision quest for you…. Some of the inner workings of the mind as I have experienced them. You spend much time in preparation giving conscious thought to the prayers/reasons for going up on a vision quest. If your prayers/reasons are not significantly strong enough you will absolutely not make it more than a day. The same is felt many times over each time I have gone up. The first time, much fear was felt as well. But, when one gets past the fears… what you are left with is the boring internal dialogue and the cravings of the body. You listen to yourself wish for ice-cream, soda, etc. You dream up all the wonderful dishes you could eat. You think about how nice it would be to simply sit as your feet begin to feel like lightning bolts are running through them there is so much pain from simply standing for so long and not being allowed to sit. So, you think of all these trivial things and your mind wanders and you hear for the first time perhaps how truly boring most of your thoughts are. It is like being in the company of a stranger and having that awkward silence that you feel you must fill with talk so the other will feel more at peace. So the other can get to know you. Eventually, your mind becomes so bored of this you simply cease to be a part of your thoughts. You are simply the observer watching nature. That is when you start to stop fighting with the experience and you truly become one with your surroundings as you begin to take it all in for the first time. You bounce back and forth between being the observer and listening to your own inner dialogue and then the visions come. Without beliefs though… I sincerely doubt many would have the will power to go through with a vision quest in the traditional Lakota manner.

With all of that said, follow what makes you content and gives you the strongest sense of being in harmony with yourself and nature if that is what makes you happy. So long as it harms no one I can see no harm in it.
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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 07:47:15 PM »
that is just it iyan. we are all limited to perform within the range of what we believe will produce a desired outcome.  so in that sense, it takes belief to complete a vision quest the same way it takes belief to make any other choice.  but choice is not discernment.  and that is the distinction i am trying to make.  that fact and belief function differently in the integration.  fact is mutually discernable.  we can all arrive at fact together no matter how we are cultured.  but belief is an image.  it does not exist physically.  it is an image only of the mind and not of reality.  now that is not to say that someone should or should not believe.  we'll leave that up to the many philosophers and mystics. instead if we may discuss this matter,  for a moment, free of opinion, free of belief, and meet one another on a sequence of mutually agreeable facts.   

the first fact is that three does exist a divide between discernible fact and mental images.  that is, tangible, physical matter and mental images.  it is this distinction that i am looking to relate to the peyote experience.  specifically, a peyote experince that is free of images, free of belief, free of expectations or desire, just pure blissfull receptivity. 

now correct me if i am wrong, but there is a point during your vision quests when the self concept is no longer skewing reality.  that is, we all cultivate a self concept, a point of reference from which we define all things.  that is big, that is small.  there is pride.  there is contempt.  all relative to the point of reference that is the self concept.  and it is this constantly refurbished image that skews reality by defining it, by framing it in with opinion and desire.  but sometimes we actually are receptive to reality, to fact.  sometimes all belief and compulsion are negated and there is pure blissfull receptivity.  it is this state with you i wish to discuss.  this state with no images and only the recpetion of fact.   

Offline Inyan

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 08:40:57 PM »
I think I understand what you are getting at, but can you really separate yourself totally from ones beliefs?

Discernment is the ability to perceive or judge. I would argue that our beliefs often color our perceptions and therefore clouds our judgments. I would argue that many times you do not have a real choice as you do not realize you are making a choice based on beliefs that have been taught to you.

You believe that we can be free of belief and of opinion and you are free to have that belief if that is your opinion. I believe that our thoughts are like a web and each thought is interconnected with other thoughts much like a molecule of water is connected to other molecules of water in an ocean.

As concerns your point about self concept on a vision quest, I can tell you that from my experience that the internal dialogue that is formulated from past experiences/beliefs/etc. and is that which is taught can indeed shut down or off if you will or at least that is the experience of it as it feels as if you are simply the experience.  However, I suspect those thoughts are still running in the background. It is how you can vision of a truck wreck for example and be in the passenger side of a truck as well as on the outside of the truck looking in. Essentially experiencing an experience in a way that would not normally be possible except perhaps in a dream state. There is or can be that pure blissful state as well where upon experiencing it I felt as if I was in an ocean of unconditional acceptance as everything simply was and that was okay. There was no judgment and there was no right or wrong in that moment. There was simply being and that feeling was totally overwhelming to the point that it jump started the internal dialogue once again and the immediate thought for me was this is too good. No one should feel this good. No one, especially me, deserves to feel this freaking good. And with that simple thought the feeling was gone and that high was lost. That is the reality. We create our own highs and lows. We affect and allow ourselves to be effected by outside forces and how we have been taught to respond to them. It is our beliefs that we should not or can not that limit us in that regard and those beliefs are deep seated whether we consciously understand that fact or not. We constantly judge and sense we are being judged as that is the reality most of us live in. It is how we know what is appropriate and inappropriate… that ability to judge and be taught what is right and wrong. When our internal dialogue makes major changes then our sense of self changes. That is how I perceive it and I may be totally wrong. Having switched lenses a few times this is how I perceive it. I totally get that my reality may not be the exact same as yours. Stripping ourselves of garbage or reprogramming the garbage speak so to speak is sometimes a daunting task. The less garbage internal dialogue we have the better. Still, we are left with many moments that we must fill or at least that we think we must fill. Many are not content to exist in awkward silence with others, much less themselves.

How many of us would love to have a well muscled body or at least one that was noticeably toned? How many people would love to be able to do a single pushup or pullup and yet how many of us can do these simple things? If our desires are in conflict with our beliefs that we can do something then this can create a problem. We can let go of the idea that we would like to be able to lift or push our own body weight or we can create a whole system of beliefs about why we can't. There is not enough time in the day is an excuse I've often heard. Yet, how long does it take to try a single time each day? How much time do we waste watching television or engaged in idle chatter? Our beliefs shape our mind and thus our body and ultimately our reality. I apologize if I haven't done a good job on explaining this, but perhaps you may find a small kernel of truth that resonates with you. For me, I have a belief that a person should always be able to lift their body weight once they reach the age that they can actively work towards that. To that end, I perform just 2 exercises a day for less than 6 minutes time under tension. My goals have been met and while I may not go up as fast as some others who do more. I have my very simple goal and beliefs that have been met. Once upon a time I had a goal or belief that I could run a 5 minute mile. That goal was met. I trained many other people to run a 6 minute mile as I had the belief anyone could run a 6 minute mile provided they would give just a little effort. A 5 minute mile being the point at which you experience diminishing returns for your effort in my opinion or belief.

Peyote can affect not just what we see, but also what we hear, feel, and sense. This is one reason I love the sound of a water drum or a rattle during ceremony. Peyote can also affect changes in what we believe or understand to be true. It literally makes one more open to the power of suggestion and those affects can linger long after the effects of the medicine are gone from the body.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:58:23 AM by Inyan »
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Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 08:41:41 AM »
that's it!  that's the place!  that ocean of unconditional acceptance!  to see that ocean is to look without opinion, without the impetus to change the self or the surroundings.  that's what acceptance is.  a complete lack of psychological resistance.  when we believe something should be different, we are not receptive to it, we do not accept it.  but when there is no belief, then there is no coloring of perception.  It is this state, and its outcomes, I hope to discuss. 

now everything that can be defined, is defined relative to the self concept, to the idea of a centre.  you come upon an object and you see not the object but your relationship to it.  its uses, its value etc.  and with successive interactions there begins the cultivation of an image.  That is, the object is catalogued and labelled psychologically.  And, we create these images not only for objects, but for ideals, people, concepts etc.  and cumulatively, these labels etch out the self concept- they form the idea of 'I' relative to things.  So the self concept is always moving. Always adjusting as we cultivate labels.  The problem is, the image is of belief, and the object is of fact.  Now this is not 'me' expressing 'my' belief, this is simply a matter of mutually discerning the divide between subjective and objective awareness, for the purpose of furthering our mutual understanding, finding communion. 

Now, you have experienced the objective universe.  You have felt its acceptance. Your connection to it.  And, of course you have experienced the subjective universe.  And it is that universe in which most of us are trapped.  We are trapped within a network of our own fears and desires, our own beliefs and compulsions.  And so there is conflict.  There is conflict between the what is and the what should be, and conflict between the self and the neighbour. And so it is in this manner that there is isolation when there is belief. 

Outside of this isolation there is the integration.  That is, the integration of all things. But as long as there is the self concept, one does not experience the integration.  As long as there is the self concept, one does not experience the what is, but rather the what should be.  Do you see it? 

Now when we take peyote, when we meditate, when we love, there is a movement towards objectivity.  It is this movement the I intend to harness, and to communicate.  For it is this movement, from subjective awareness - with all its fears and compulsions - to objectivity - which is the ocean of acceptance, it is this movement that ends conflict.  From the most trivial internal duality, to the most destructive war.  So this matter seems to be of great importance. 

You mention that the effects of peyote do not recede when one exits the teepee, or in my case, walks home from the beach. The experience does not wear off because it has become part of the self concept - as all experiences that are labelled and catalogued do.  But there is a continuum of awareness, on one end, objective fact, and on the other, subjective definition.  It is our understanding of the self mechanically that moves experience along this plane.  If we don't understand ourselves, we are merely automatons of ideals.  But if we understand the nature of our compulsion, the impetus recedes and we move closer to objectivity.  Peyote shows us our nature.  It shows us the nature of things. And it is this understanding that lingers. 

Now this place of objectivity is nature.  Nature holds no opinions.  No beliefs.  Nature has no expectation or fear. No compulsion outside of its physicality.  It is from nature that we derive all invention.  So it is nature, that undefinable, constantly unfolding being that is the source of all intelligence. If we can look at it, without trying to change it, without trying to fit it into the framework of our ideals, then we tap into that intelligence, and dissolve conflict.  It is the use of peyote in this manner that the speaker is looking to share. But it must be done carefully, for the moment there is the 'me' or the 'mine' there is division, authority, conflict.  So to communicate this matter without creating conflict there mustn't be any sense of ownership, no sense of tradition, no pattern to follow.  As soon as there is a pattern there is division between the mine and the yours. And I am not looking to sell an ideal, there is quite enough of that going on, but rather to advance the collective understanding of the integration, the collective understanding of nature.  If done correctly, we will move the collective towards objectivity and away from war. 

May we discuss how this is to be achieved?  How to end conflict in the minds of man?  May we go into it? 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:49:02 AM by Seaside Chief »

Offline Inyan

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 07:28:21 PM »
This state of being or not being. This state of accepting everything as it is and wanting nothing can be achieved with tools such as peyote, beliefs, ceremonies, etc. These tools done a certain way or used a certain way can often lead to this state of unconditional love/acceptance. It is then that the tools drop away for a few seconds. Reality ceases to be as we have defined it.

You seek to evade that which is structured and go straight into the chaos and while I think this may be possible for some, I do not think that the results will always be as one wants and I certainly don’t think it will work for all. I see these tools as having the potential for great healing as well as great harm. It is precisely the use of tradition/ceremony that helps sets up the stage for the release in a positive manner. Albeit, there may indeed be those that will abuse that power regardless of how it is controlled or what process one uses to get there.

I think as long as we are talking about people we must realize that we are not all created equal. There are those that will abuse power regardless as some simply lack the biological capacity to love. There is nothing that can be done for these people. They are born this way. Ruling out those few, we need only concern ourselves directly with ourselves. If we achieve any lasting ability to change ourselves for the better however one wishes to define that then those positive changes will ripple out to those we are in contact with and so on and so forth so long as others are receptive. You can not make another person ready for change anymore than you can force yourself to change. You have to want the change you seek and then you have to have a plan and as they say even the best laid plans can go astray. This is where the importance of ceremony comes into play.

Now, I completely understand your desire to strip yourself of dogma. To follow a pure path as it were. All ceremonies evolved from somewhere. If we simply let the medicine teach us and stay away from the dogma… can that truly be done? While I argue against it, I will state that I think it is also possible. I simply thing that instead of using a different cultural or religious set of beliefs one will simply be inserting their own beliefs whether they want to or not. No matter how pure you try to make the experience you are always going to be bringing your own baggage and your own beliefs into the equation and thus if your own beliefs concerning the medicine help you then great. You are good to go as they say. You must understand a tool and how it works on your own mind and emotions before you can safely begin to tear it apart to reformulate how it is used. This is my biased opinion and if you are willing to take risks outside of that to keep the experience more pure and less tainted by outside cultural influences then that is also your own prerogative.  I would say study how other cultures use a particular medicine at the very least. Evolve your own ceremony based on your own understanding of these types of ceremonies while at the same time being careful not to culturally rob those other cultures of their ceremonies. If it is your own… then own it as your own. It is possible to both own something as coming from within and set it free at the same time. It is not an either or situation or at least it doesn’t have to be.

A pattern is what you wish to escape from, but it is a pattern that can help you get there. In the same way when we actually change internal dialogue we experience a change not just of thought, but of perception... feeling and emotion follow and so to does reality. When you experience these shifts from one pattern to another when it is a true and deep shift that shift itself can be freeing. It shows you that first and foremost that other patterns are possible and that it is more than simply a thought or a change of thought. The ability to shift from one way of perceiving to another is something that many who can or have done this may not truly wish to continue doing depending on the cost or the perceived cost to other thoughts/emotions/ etc. that come with such a shift.

If I could some up the most important thing that can be gained... it is simply to know oneself and to accept oneself unconditionally. With that being said there are many insights that can be gained into the self and I personally get excited when I see a bit of thought or emotion that I had not noticed was tied into this other thought or emotion. Especially so when I realize that other thought was not one that was needed and may even be harmful to hold onto.
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Offline Inyan

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 07:47:21 AM »
I'm going to try and meet you halfway and you might very well think this is not trying at all as I see a need for some sort of guidance and pattern.

In a nutshell, I believe that it does help many to have a guide... someone who has been there before.

I believe that music can stimulate the emotions in a positive direction or even a negative depressing direction.
Music can be the force that keeps you grounded to a specific idea or group of ideas. Whatever music it is that you listen to that brings up the best in you... that is often the best to listen to. If a particular song makes you sad, depressed, or lonely... that is the kind of music you want to steer clear of as the medicine can magnify these feelings and how we react to those songs.

Sometimes we can have specific triggers that push us in a more positive or negative direction. Try to make sure the triggers that will excite you in one direction or another are limited and more focused towards the positive.

The ability to focus ones intent on a specific goal whether it be through visualization, chanting, meditation, internal dialogue, prayer, etc. can be of help if one utilizes it. If your personal ceremony is unstructured expect that your experience may very well follow suit. That is not to say an unstructured experience can not had that lends itself to profound personal insights, it is just to say that some structure can often be of benefit and is a definite plus when it comes to harm reduction.

 In life we may have many singular events over the course of our lives that transforms us to such a degree that we are changed from that moment on. We realize that more with age than we do with youth as we have lived more and have had more chances for those types of experiences. Given that this medicine can magnify the emotions and mental state many times over... is it wise to have a completely unstructured ceremony or approach if you will? For a single person by themselves who has experienced the same strength of medicine repeatedly and is familiar with it to a great degree perhaps. I'd say the same may even go for two people, but the more people you introduce into an unstructured ceremony the greater the chaos may be.
For those that graft...
Every areole is a cactus waiting to be born

Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 08:14:36 PM »
Now surely the guide is not the concern but rather the nature of his guidance.  does the guide demonstrate fact, or does he perpetuate belief?  if he perpetuates belief , does he call it his own?  does he denounce all else?  if he does these things he creates conflict.  conflict between the 'mine' and the 'yours'.  my ideology and your ideology.   the left and the right.  as soon as there is this division, this deviation from fact, there is duality/conflict.  so there cannot be the mine and the yours for the fact to be.  there is just the fact.  when you call it mine or yours it becomes an idea, which is not a fact.  and i'm not saying that an idea cannot be, in part, factual, it can.  but it cannot be a fact when it is considered.  a fact, is itself absent from ideation.  we can tap into fact, perceptually, we can recieve it, when there is not belief, opinion, want, etc.  these are the perceptual overlays that distort the reception of fact.  if the guide can point to fact, truth, nature,  god, intelligence - call it what you will -if he can demonstrate how to recieve it, regardless of his methods, his efforts will surely dissolve conflict. 

it's the mine that is really the issue here inyan.  self approximation.  the idea that one is of the left or the right.  this idea that one is mormon or catholic or buddhist or athiest.  the idea that one is fearful or acquisitive.  the idea that one is virtuous or contemptuous.  these are all ideas of self approximation and they are a misinterpretation of fact.  the fact is not the left or the right.  that is the opinion.  the fact is the whole entire matter.  the fact is both the left and the right and the conflict between them.  that is fact.  the moment one says 'i am with the left' he no longer sees fact but the skewed image of self approximation.  and so we have conflict. 

now this conflict has led to religious war for centuries.  wars of ownership.  wars of ideology.  it can stop.  because there is not the mine and the yours in fact - at least ideologically.  in fact, we posses things, no more than they possess us psychologically.  no matter whether those things be property, culture, religion, or an idea.  the moment there is the mine there is conflict due to this very minute deviation from fact.  in this regard, any deviation from fact, perceptually, produces conflict. 

so the moment i form an opinion, the moment i take a side, the moment i say i am of the left or the right, i have been misled.  i am no longer looking at the entire problem.  and i perpetuate conlifct.  i become an automaton and perpetute conflict.  i am a mere robot of ideation.  a program.  stomping my feet to my religion or my political opinion.   stomping my feet to the 'mine'.  but if i see the whole process, if i see the fact of it, that the 'mine' and the 'yours' are false, and there is only the integration, then i am free from this compulsion.  then we dissolve that thing that fuels war/conflict. 

so that is why i am suggesting that tradition is dangerous.  that is not to suggest that guidance is unnecessary.  just that inherently, tradition, or  patterns, have structure  and so are not malleable.  they are inflexible.  and we are in a world with growing numbers of overlapping, conflicting, rigid thought structures.  so to me, the matter that is of fundamental concern is dissolving self approximation, which is belief, which is tradition.   and not authoritatively, but through mutual appreciation of fact.  shared reception of fact. 

surely this doesn't sound unreasonable inyan? 


« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 08:37:32 PM by Seaside Chief »

Offline Seaside Chief

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Re: The Peyote Way Church Of God
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2017, 07:24:42 PM »
I hope you are not put off by this discussion inyan.  i see it as the most pressing matter of our time.  this matter of self approximation.  we have a man here who says he is of the left and a man there who says he is of the right.  and here we are looking at both of these men, quibbling about image and ignoring completely the problems they share. 

now i am not looking to prosthelytize any idea.  that is for the acquisitvie man, compelled by his belief.  i am looking instead to find communion with those things around me.  harmony.  symbiosis.  this is the most efficient and therefore comfortable, overall, way of communal living.  and we know this to be true, don't we?  when there is harmony between us we can acccomplish an array of feats.  but when we are conflicted, our interaction cannot progress towards communion. and so interculturally, internationally, and interpersonally, we are limited. 

and so, i cannot approach any communal problem with any particular agenda or view.  or i am just an automaton of an idea.  so i must approach the proiblem denuded of all preconception.  i must be looking at the problem and not merely looking to execute a predetermined solution. 

i am looking to discuss the communal problem of perspective, which is self approximation, and how this pertains to peyote and its healing potential.  i am not here to discuss 'my' perspective or 'your' perspective but perspective abstractly.  perspective, as it pertains to us, those men quietly observing the quibbles of the left and right, of the contradictory religious sects, and of the nationalists.  i would like to discuss with you here what makes us the same, and not how we choose to divide ourselves.  if this seems unrelated to this message board, i contest that it is not.  there can be communion between all cultures, religions, nationalities and political and ideological divides.  but to get there, we must ackowledge the position of the impartial observer, who observes and understands dispassionately the position of both the left and the right.   

we can inject this concept into the collective consicousness.  and i think i know how.  but i need your help.  i need to discuss with you this matter and find out what is true.  unfortunately, i cannot see what is true, through my own eyes alone.  so there must be communion for truth to be. 


« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 07:29:55 PM by Seaside Chief »