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News: Discussion of psychoactive cacti and succulents

Author Topic: Pejuta  (Read 20465 times)

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Offline Inyan

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 02:24:52 PM »
Again, you understand exactly what I am relating. There is a fear and a lack of understanding with these sacraments in the general public and an overt enthusiasm of others and everything in between. Those overly enthusiastic may think they understand when they do not understand or think they can handle more than they can and bite off more than they can chew as a very little deviation in mixtures or even with some sacraments by themselves can be the difference between a successful session where one is gently reminded of connections we have with nature and insights into our own self or thinking one is entirely and completely gone… a total dissolving of one’s self and one’s reality. Albeit, some entheogens have less leeway for error than others. If you attempt to experience any of these sacraments and there is fear inside you then you are more apt to have a bad experience and you have already made a potentially bad situation worse if you have not been slow in your approach to these medicines and slowly garnered their trust. This goes back to the tree exercise I explained earlier… You build connections with medicines slowly and over time. This is why a guide is preferable to having none as it  can help speed up the process as you are building on the connections of another while you are making connections with that guide. Again, you hit the nail on the head here when you mention adequate supervision and insight. Time, supervision, and insight are all relative and differ from person to person. In the end, if you don’t slowly approach these plants erring on the side of caution and slowly getting to know these plants you may find that you are disappointed and try to ramp up you experience too fast. This is where the insight or guidance of another comes into play. If you don’t 100% trust that guide and you go into that experience with fear then you are playing with fire. It is far better to have a single Amanita for instance and prepare this mixed with a liter of water. Drinking one cup the first week, one and a half cups the next… if you are fearful of that sacrament. The point is that you are not trying to gain significant insights during this time, but rather building a relationship with this sacrament over time. You have to understand, I have been vision questing, sundancing, etc. since I was 16 years of age and participating in many other ceremonies and the like before that. This does not mean you should trust me as I cannot be your guide in a real meaningful sense with these medicines as you should have a guide that is there with you in person for these types of experiences if your seeking any deep breakthroughs and have not taken a long time to get to know these sacraments without any thought of making a breakthrough. The goal should not be to vision at first, but rather to understand and get to know the sacrament you are working with over time. Time is relative and we each need a different amount of time to make those connections that are needed to understand a medicine. If the appropriate amount of time is taken prior to making a breakthrough experience then you will have much more insight gained than you would from simply partaking of a “correct amount” the first time. The real dangers here are taking any sacrament when you have any internal fear, lack respect for the power of these sacraments, and lack a real understanding of what you are doing and how these medicines interact with you. Without a guide, more time should be taken than normal… much more time… getting to know these sacraments. The better the guide the less time that needs to be taken. I think you make some very valid points and you say them in a way that I have a hard time with as I fully respect these sacraments and have taken many years to get to know them in both the waking world and the dream world so to speak. With that said, I do not make adjustments to my sacramental  methods, quantities, admixtures, settings, etc. lightly unless it is to reduce the amount that I am dreaming of. When you experience a tree, say a pine, you may notice at first that a pine may seem somehow warmer or inviting than another tree nearby. Over time, if you build a relationship or connection with that tree by meditating, relaxing, talking, etc. to that tree you are building a relationship between yourself and that tree. That tree is getting to know you just as you are getting to know that tree. There is a bond that is formed there. The better you are at forming those bonds, the closer you feel, the less you are pushed away and the more you are invited to understand about yourself as well as that tree. That is the way I see it, but that is not the only way to see it. We all have different ways of perceiving an event, site, sight, smell, etc. How we react to that event, site, etc. is directly related to how we perceive that event and to the connections, thought processes, emotions, etc. that go into it. The stronger the connections are in a positive manner the more positive the experience will be so long as one remembers to always respect the power inherent in a situation, sacrament, etc. The worst danger of all is when you have gotten to know these sacraments slowly and think that your connection will save you from what you know to be a leap beyond what you have ever experienced. I won’t tell you to trust me. I would rather tell you to listen to your instinct and get to know whatever sacrament you are drawn to in as slow a manner as you need and to have a guide present. When you talk of the universe dissolving you are already talking about similar experiences as can be had with any of these other sacraments by themselves. The fact that you understand that a quid can be a better way to experience this medicine for yourself is already showing deep insight into the fact that the medicine just facilitates what is already inside you. The medicine should be a friendly guide and not approached too abruptly or demandingly. With that said, the medicine may always choose to show you more than you think you can handle, but the medicine will never give you more than you can handle if it is approached with respect in the proper setting with a proper guide. If you let your ego tell you that you need to bench 300 lbs with these sacraments after only lifting the bar however… The old adage more is not always better comes into play. You have to interact with these sacraments and tools or they are devoid of meaning and rife with danger. Thank you for making these points more salient in this discussion.
For those that graft...
Every areole is a cactus waiting to be born

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2015, 02:21:19 AM »
i've got to say, the little bit of your history i know is quite fascinating.  not to mention it's interpretations.  i feel like there should be a documentary covering your experiences.  it seems others have experiences that are far different from your own yet interestingly reach similar conclusions about the nature of entheogenic plants and of themselves.  it seems the plants themselves have some inherent guiding quality.  in the culture to which i was submerged, the first entheogenic experiences came in fungal form and showed up at high school dances.  there were no guides.  there was a guidance counsellor, but she was as confused as us.  so now you're got this barely plotted teenage brain staring at it's own eyeballs in a bathroom mirror totally confused as to how two separate incarnations could simultaneously have different thoughts after both experiencing the exact same thing?!  these immature minds were baffled… this concept of two separate consciousnesses….  how could it be real…?  how could it be possible…?

some years after quitting smoking after the single session of diviners sage i had begun to gain a tremendous respect for this particular sacrament.  i believe the public opinion of this plant is all wrong.  it has powerful medicinal qualities.  i don't think you necessarily need to super condense it and take a huge dose - but you shouldn't do that with cough syrup either.  i had witnessed the universe dissolving effects of the strong extracts but had never used the plant as the mazatecs did.  already having some respect for this plant my first quid was only two leaves, while meditating as to be hypersensitive to the potentially subtle changes.  every few weeks another couple of leaves were added until i first felt what i can describe as a complete separation of the single point of consciousness and the constructed physical reality that plagues that single point of consciousness.  -it was a clear summer night, i spat out the quid and sat back to continue meditating.  after few minutes my consciousness literally sat forward out of my own body leaving behind all the experiences, ideas, fears, emotions…etc back on the lawn chair...  and i momentarily existed as a single conscious entity outside of my own mind.    from that point forward mindfulness had new meaning.  i felt like i could now physically sit behind my own mind during meditation.  consequently, i could much more easily identify unfruitful thought patterns to better deal with stress, anger and so on. 

your point about entheogens facilitating an internal process really resonates with me.  i think these sacraments just show us what's already there - just from a different angle.  allowing us to get a momentary glimpse of a more complete picture.  we can then draw from these experiences in seemingly infinite ways. 

i walked down to the river a few days ago and stood by a spot i like…  there is a fallen log where i sometimes sit and two symmetrical trees framing an unfrozen section of river.  there were two groups of geese gathered on either side of a single swan.  we were all listening to the flowing water.  i stood still and began to watch my breathing and considered what it must be like to stand outside for 4 days and nights.  the geese looked uninterested.  but the swan locked eyes with me.  it was one of the most psychedelic experiences i've had.  that subtle high you get from deep breathing, the sound of the water, the corkscrewing shape of the two trees framing this beautiful connection between this animal out of it's element and this human sharing a similar experience.  neither one understanding the other.  both just breathing, existing and sharing an awareness of one another.   

yesterday i went back in search of a similar experience.  this time i found footprints heading across the river onto a small island and then to the other side.  knowing the ice was not frozen a few day prior i was a bit apprehensive.  as i continued across the snow became more shallow and the footprints revealed themselves to be hoof prints leaving me feeling somewhat less secure...  i made it across to the island and then ventured further onto the other side.  when i turned around i saw my usual walking path from a drastically different angle.  it was so intensely beautiful.  all the bare trees.  i stood there for quite a while soaking it in.  there was the spot i stood by watching the swan.  there was the log.  it was just the beginning of this incredible panorama. 

to me this is what these entheogens seems to offer.  they facilitate the crossing the metaphorical river.   

Offline Inyan

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2015, 08:40:32 PM »
I have to confess my experiences are not that different from many, but I understand how you would feel that they are. As for different experiences and reaching the same conclusions about these sacraments and themselves… I think that is par for the course as well as like it or not, these sacraments are affecting your consciousness in ways that are not fathomable for many who have not traversed their depths and attempted to get to know themselves or their sacraments. You bring up a point about having no guide that is a valid one. It is simply a matter of perspective. You see, when I write I tend to write to an audience that I feel has an element in it that is simply thrill seeking at one level. I tailor much of what I write to that audience as I do not want any of that particular crowd doing anything dangerous. I write as I know that without reading your words as well as mine that these sacraments may be taken too lightly.  To that end, you give a good balance to my words. You are rephrase things into your own understandings, misgivings, fears, uncertainties, and wonder and that provides another well needed insight.
As regards you not having a guide that first time… I would have to disagree. You always have a guide when you imbibe a sacrament. You may not listen to that guide and it may be too late for you to hear that guidance, but the sacraments that we use will always be a teacher or guide to those who respect them and even to those that don’t…. This reminds me of a vision quest I once heard about where a man went up on a vision quest seeking great medicine. He wanted to be powerful and have a powerful vision. He made his prayer ties requesting great strength. He prepared in this way for a year and when he went up with his intentions fully set on acquiring this great strength he was challenged by a large stone bolder that came tumbling after him trying to kill him the man thought. The boulder destroyed all in its path save the man who took off running from his altar. This is something you are never supposed to do as that is the one place you are taught that you are absolutely safe while vision questing. The bottom line to this story is that on a vision quest you never face a fear bigger than what you can handle. The mind set you go into that vision with however makes the difference between making it or not making it. To be honest, this man had a great and powerful vision just as he requested and he was appropriately challenged just as he requested. His prayers were heard and answered. He simply failed to listen to his vision. Had he stayed and faced his fears, there is no telling what grandfather would have told him. Perhaps he would even have acquired stone medicine which is regarded as one of the strongest medicines there is. This is one of the medicines of the yuwipi medicine men. This is what I fear when I hear of people taking sacraments without respect. Any sacrament whether it be pejuta, cimora, amanita, etc. can give you more than you wanted or worse… give you exactly what you wanted, but perhaps are not in the right state of mind to receive at the moment. There is a difference to being able to handle something and being ready to handle that something at that moment.
For those that would take the time to properly get to know a sacrament then that medicine can effectively become ones teacher or guide. For those lucky enough to experiment with a medicine without respect and still fortunate enough to receive some guidance… that is what I look at it as… fortunate. Perhaps they listened to some words of wisdom they heard from a friend of a friend… whatever the reason… they listened to something call it reason, common sense, a gut feeling, or what have you…. They are the lucky ones as I see it as in to many of today’s world there is an urgency to experience something new or get their fast without preparing properly. We want our meals fast, our service fast…. And…..
So, yes, you can have a sacrament as your guide if you can quite your own mind and have patience enough to listen to what the medicine has to teach and not rush things. This is why I mentioned getting to know the tree. The days entailed… You can apply the same thing to other medicine people, sacraments, etc. as it is all about forming connections, understandings, etc. over time. Being consistent and sticking with what you have promised you would do. When you make a promise to the spirit or to yourself… that is the one promise you should try to keep. Do not offer more than you can bite off, but offer something substantial and the rewards will be just as substantial if not significantly more so. I understand how these tools work and that allows me to adjust them and understand what I am getting myself into. I do not take these tools and try to adjust them past my point of understanding as that would prove fruitless at best and deadly at worst.
There is a difference in having a medicine and being affected by a medicine. Someone with Eagle medicine for instance may be able to heal you with their medicine. The same can be said of some medicine person with any medicine. Their healing abilities and methods simply differ. You are typically simply being affected or healed by a medicine that you take as a sacrament in a ceremonial setting. You do not truly have that medicine. That medicine has not become a part of you. With the tree exercise I gave you… you are actually becoming a part of that tree or that spot of land and it you. That is the difference and that exercise can be applied to any medicine person, sacrament, land, ocean, etc. But again, there is a difference between acquiring a medicine as a helper and acquiring that medicine as a medicine. As a helper, you are looking at having a single bear, eagle, stone, etc. medicine helper. When you look at it in its entirety as you have acquired that medicine then you have acquired the spirit of that medicine in its totality and in the same token it has acquired you. The two of you have become as one. So, there are different levels of understanding or being. This is why some medicine people speak of eating an entire plant… roots, stems, leaves, flowers, and all. Being careful not to break even a single root lest the spirit escape through the root piece that was broken off. They are speaking of acquiring a single medicine helper… not a medicine necessarily in its entirety. Now, simply eating a plant in and of itself will do almost nothing to help you acquire it as your helper. It is the intent that matters most of all and how you approach it.
The way you approached diviners sage is a right way of approaching a sacrament. It is not the only way, but it is a very good right way. You could do the same with most sacraments whether they be Amanita, Trichocereus, or Lophophora and your breakthrough would be just as profound as you gave it the proper respect and time to get to know and understand it and allowed the sacrament to slowly teach you instead of barging into the class demanding to be let in on an advanced anatomy class having never learned basic anatomy or any science for that matter.
The experience you relate by the river tells me you already know how to begin to tap into nature in a deep and profound way. All that is left to do is to acquire a mindset to do more of the same and make a promise to yourself that will help solidify that bond in a more meaningful manner. The promise itself does not matter as to its content so much as the fact that a promise that can be kept is made. The promise should not be so hard that there is a high likelihood of you failing it, but the promise should not be so easy that it has no weight. This is a promise to yourself and for yourself as much as it is to a medicine, tree, swan, etc. The point is that this promise will change you and in doing so how you relate to the world and how the world relates to you. It is the same that is done when you wish to befriend someone consciously or unconsciously. You are attracted to some part of that person and that person in turn is attracted to some part of you. Promises are made to meet again, to do this or that… and something stronger than an acquaintance develops…into a true friendship. That is the tool that I have been explaining broken down into its compartments and held out raw so as to reveal it in its completeness and without so much mystery and kept simple enough that I won’t ramble on too long about how it works anymore lest I completely bore you with the mechanics of it all. Suffice it to say that it all goes back to the medicine wheel or iktomi’s web… whichever symbolism you prefer.

I've laid out the tools as bare as I know how to lay them out so you can use them or not as you see fit. From what I can tell of you from your righting, this should enable you to modify this tool to fit yourself if you should chose to use it in part or in whole... as I see elements of it that you are doing already. The very bottom line is these are all just tools that enable us to get to know ourselves and the world better and to grow in harmony with ourselves and the world as a whole... one piece at a time. None of these tools are needed to do that, but they do work well and that is the big draw for many that begin to understand them.
For those that graft...
Every areole is a cactus waiting to be born

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2015, 12:12:55 AM »
well, i've got to say thanks!  you have significantly broadened my understanding of your culture and likely to some degree changed some trajectories… i'm going to read up on the types of medicines you mentioned.  i think i have used stone medicine before.  i will use these techniques and reference these posts.  ...i can't stop thinking about experiencing that 4 day vision quest… something to work up to maybe. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W64ymSwYW2w

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers."
                     -kayne west
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 12:14:42 AM by Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps »

Offline Inyan

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2015, 06:30:31 PM »
I like that... Kanye. I was once told that animals acquire the medicine of the plants they eat and the other animals they eat as they don't have negative emotions like Homo sapiens. With us, we can be exposed to a medicine repeatedly and never acquire it due to these negative emotions. All negative emotions have their root in fear. Backtracking, this is why it takes multiple exposures over a long period of time for Homo sapiens to develop a feeling for a medicine... gradually taking it into our being so to speak over a longer period of time. Again, I always think of this along the lines of a spider web or a medicine wheel. The more you come in contact with a particular string on a web, lets call it stone medicine, the more that line or pieces of it adhere to you. Eventually, you have a portion of you that resonates completely with that medicine that you are able to tap into at any time.
For those that graft...
Every areole is a cactus waiting to be born

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2015, 11:53:41 PM »
i was once told that whenever i get angry i should try to think of what i'm afraid of.  what a great piece of advice.  saved me a lot of time. 

Offline Inyan

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2015, 06:02:42 PM »
Again, I'm speaking to the choir it seems. Its almost uncanny how so many cultures see things so similarly sometimes and yet phrase it differently ... but the meaning is much the same.
For those that graft...
Every areole is a cactus waiting to be born

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2015, 12:13:43 AM »
only the cool cultures... 8)  but really though, there are still some cultures that cut heads off for witchcraft.  i strongly question their capacity for introspection...  but of course without uncool, cool does not exist.  seems all i can do is appreciate the contrast.   

Offline ChimoraRanger

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2015, 11:07:46 AM »
Sorry, I can't let you attribute that sentiment to Kanye. It's a Buddhist saying originally formulated by Qingyuan Weixin, later translated by D.T. Suzuki in his Essays in Zen Buddhism.

Offline Chief BigTittyFlapFlaps

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2015, 07:58:07 PM »
my bad. was he in the wu tang clan?  either way the statement describes this continuum of perceptual change we're all on, knowingly or otherwise, so I figured it could help sum up the conversation. 

Offline Inyan

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Re: Pejuta
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 10:33:15 AM »
If it is written then it is so
For those that graft...
Every areole is a cactus waiting to be born